Electric cars, Emperor's new clothes???

Vanterrier

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Are electric cars the Emperor's new clothes I wonder? The cost to the environment of building and running the damn things then the leftovers even after recycling them... I hear of four year old Leafs with batteries on their way out and replacement batteries costing more than the car is worth! The inconvenience of long charging times and so few charging points. Imagine the carparks we use now full of electric cars... wheres the money coming from for all the charging points needing to be installed. And now we are looking at destroying the sea bed in an effort to find the minerals required to make batteries?
All that versus further developing the vastly improved diesels or other fuels like cow-farts so I can continue to enjoy roast beef.
Im not a luddite, really I am not but I just think EV's are not the (only) solution.
There, thats off my chest.
K ;)
 
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What I would really like to know is where they are going to get all the electricity from in the first place. The way they are going every inch of the sea bed will have a windmill on it. You will then need thousands of recharging points. The only bit they haven’t really considered is fuel tax. They make millions out of fuel tax so where are they going to get the income from. Perhaps they will have a meter in each car / lorry / bus and you will be charged per mile.
 
I went to look at new builders vans last week and thought I’d take a look at electric vans absolutely mental one of the vans that fitted the bill for size was the Renault master lwb electric the top driving range on a full charge was estimated at 75 miles but with a bit of load and taking temperature into account that could drop to 50 miles or lower and this van was £60,000 including vat and taking any gov grants into account and if you wanted to charge it at home it took 13 hours to charge, kings new clothes is an understatement when it comes to commercials
 
My EV has a quoted range of 325 miles although I wouldn’t want to test this to the limit! I managed 250 miles last week (Aberdeen to Tebay services) with a reasonable amount still left at Tebay. Took 15 minutes to charge back up to 80% on the Tebay supercharger which is free for me. Admittedly if I let it get really low it takes 9 hours to charge overnight at home but as this costs me I simply nip down to our local 43kw public charge point, which is free for us lucky folk in Scotland and leave the car there for a couple of hours. Incidentally the car does 0 to 60 in 4.4 secs and has a top speed of 155mph, not that I will ever do these sort of speeds so a bit wasted on me.
 
Wonder if I could carry four sets of ladders on the roof and get a cement mixer in the boot of a Tesla🤔. There new pick up looks good think they release it for sale this month ill need to shake the piggy bank though bet it’s not gonna be cheap
 
I too am very sceptical of Electric cars etc but I guess that is how things were when the Horse and cart was phased out disbelief and wonder, but not for me electric , I will stick with Petrol and Diesel as long as I can, I read somewhere that someone was fined for staying at a charging point too long because the car would not charge, he had just got the vehicle and was doing the charging bit incorrectly apparently, bet he loved the car after that Hee Hee.
 
Wonder if I could carry four sets of ladders on the roof and get a cement mixer in the boot of a Tesla🤔. There new pick up looks good think they release it for sale this month ill need to shake the piggy bank though bet it’s not gonna be cheap

Cement mixer in the boot - no problem. Ladders on the roof could be difficult because of the stupid falcon wing doors!!
 
What I would really like to know is where they are going to get all the electricity from in the first place. The way they are going every inch of the sea bed will have a windmill on it. You will then need thousands of recharging points. The only bit they haven’t really considered is fuel tax. They make millions out of fuel tax so where are they going to get the income from. Perhaps they will have a meter in each car / lorry / bus and you will be charged per mile.

Think they’ve already thought about the tax.
 
I suspect the eventual solution will be limited range on batteries and power pickup on major roads. I suspect that every vehicle will be monitored 24/7 'for tolling purposes' and charges levied for every mile travelled.
 
I have been looking at electric cars for some time but I simply can't my head around the low mileages possible on a charge which is why I am also looking at various hybrids and for me the Mitsubishi Outlander Petrol/Electric appears to tick a lot of my boxes including zero VED and some quite to very good fuel consumption figures once the driving technique has been learnt,it is also a Mitsubishi and I know from past experiences how superbly engineered their cars are.
 
Hybrids I kind of get with the elec portion being to extend MPG and I agree that Mitsubishi's are bullet proof ( having had three of their 4x4's)
Im hoping full EV's are the auto-betamax and someone will come along with a VHS version soon to save us all that wasted cost of the EV infrastructure, build cost, running cost of electricty generation and disposal costs.(and that Taxation above).
Fingers crossed...
K ;)
 
As someone who's been driving an electric car for four years now, I can't really imagine going back to a fossil-burner. I do, however, have a diesel van, and I think it'll be a while before electric alternatives are really viable there. I expect we'll see hydrogen-powered hybrids eventually replacing diesel in larger vehicles.

Most discussions on this topic involve a mix of fact and fiction, so for what it's worth, here are some experiences from someone who's taken an active interest in this for some years...

Mine is an elderly BMW i3, and only has an electric range of about 70 miles on a good day. But it does also have the little 600cc 'range-extender' engine, which means you can run for about another 80 miles on petrol if you need to. That was very useful as a 'get out of jail card' when this was made 5 years ago, and allowed me to switch to electric as my only vehicle, before the charging network was nearly as extensive as it is today. (The range-extender approach is different from a standard hybrid like a Prius, because you're not carrying a big fuel tank and a big engine: it's a battery-based car with a small generator that can keep it topped up: the engine never drives the wheels directly.) I use the range extender perhaps once every couple of months, and, since I've had the car, I've done something approaching 1500 mpg.

All my normal day-to-day driving: popping into town, visiting my parents, going to Stansted airport and back, fits within the 70-mile range. About twice a week, I plug it in on the driveway. I have a standard 7kW car charging point, which means that if the battery is completely empty, it takes about 3 hours to charge. 'Fuel' costs are about 3p per mile - it would be cheaper if I bothered with Economy 7 - and I buy my power from a company that uses only renewable sources, mostly hydroelectric, so the majority of my driving is powered by Welsh rainwater!

I probably wouldn't bother with a range extender if I were buying a car now, because almost all electric cars sold this year have a range of at least 200-300 miles, and that's no longer just the case for expensive Teslas! It's worth noting how much things have changed in just 4 years since I bought my car. The question has changed in that time from 'How far can you drive before you must stop?', to 'How far will your bladder let you drive anyway?' and now it's more like 'How far do you want to drive in a day, anyway?'.

Even with my battery I've done longer journeys: I've been from Cambridge to the Lake District and back twice without using any petrol, for example. Yes, it takes quite a bit longer, because I have to take more breaks, and for longer. But as a result I arrive much less tired, and I suspect I travel more safely. And that extra time on long journeys is easily offset by never having to go into a petrol station for the rest of the year! When I *can* buy a campervan with a decent-sized battery, though, stopping at charging points will be even less of an issue: I'll just make a cuppa or take a short nap!

Anyway, sorry - this is becoming an essay, and yes, there are still plenty of issues to be sorted out, so let me switch to bullet points to address a few common misunderstandings that I often hear in the pub:

* The time quoted for recharging can range from 15 minutes to 20 hours! This is because different cars have different sized batteries and different possible rates of charging, and different charging points have different capabilities. But the maths is not hard. If you're plugging into a normal 13A socket you can't draw much more than 2kW for an extended period. If you have a 40kWH battery, it takes 20 hours in those unlikely situations when you are completely empty and need to be completely full. But most people who own an EV have a 7kW charging socket at home, meaning it takes a third of that time, and the chargers installed at service stations, healthclubs, hotels etc are generally 50kW, Tesla ones will do over 100kW, and we're starting to get a few public chargers which can go as high as 300kW (in the currently unlikely event that you have a car that can ask for that much!).

* There are currently more public charging points in the UK than there are petrol stations. And, note, that is *public* charging points; it doesn't take account of the much larger number attached to people's houses. However, it is worth taking with a big pinch of salt, because most of them are slow (7kw or lower), but those are still important. In somewhere like a National Trust car park or a hotel, it's much more important to have lots of cheap slow chargers than one expensive fast one.

* When you are using public chargers, you generally have to pay. You will sometimes pay three or four times as much as your electricity costs as home. This is, however, still cheaper per mile than petrol, and most people do only a tiny fraction of their charging that way.

* Car batteries, like all batteries, do eventually lose some of their capacity, but they are lasting much longer than people originally thought would be the case. Don't make the mistake of thinking that this is like your electric toothbrush or your phone! There are many Teslas and Nissan Leafs that have clocked up huge mileages. Most manufacturers offer something like an 8-year warranty on them not having lost significant capacity in that time. And the batteries are far too valuable to be thrown away, so they are reused in a variety of cunning ways (for example to smooth out spikes on the grid, or as home storage for solar installations).

* Electric cars are still more expensive than their carbon-powered equivalents, but the gap is closing fast and price parity is generally anticipated to be here either next year or the year after.

* There will be some challenges to the electricity grid as we switch over to electric, but nothing like the Daily Mail would have you believe. :) It turns out that the existing grid could cope just fine as long as we're a little bit smart about charging. The challenge would be if everybody in the country suddenly bought an EV, came home at 6 o'clock, plugged in and wanted to charge at full rate there and then. But if you charge at off-peak times (and both cars and charging points are becoming increasing smart about this) it smooths out the overall grid usage, requiring power stations to be stopped and started less often.

For me, the really interesting stuff is in the V2G (vehicle to grid) arena, where the car can provide power back to the house (or grid). That's a whole separate topic, but there are trials currently underway in many areas. The opportunities for storing renewable energy in this vast, distributed battery, spread around the country, and then using it to avoid having to build power stations which only serve to supply peak loads is, for me, one of the most exciting aspects of this.

So yes, there are challenges to be faced - for my first two years of EV ownership I had no off-street parking, for example - but overall, my experience of living with an EV for some years has been positive, and they are clearly the way of the future. They're such fun to drive, too!

OK, apologies for the long post! Hope that's of interest to somebody!
 
Are electric cars the kings new clothes I wonder? The cost to the environment of building and running the damn things then the leftovers even after recycling them... I hear of four year old Leafs with batteries on their way out and replacement batteries costing more than the car is worth! The inconvenience of long charging times and so few charging points. Imagine the carparks we use now full of electric cars... wheres the money coming from for all the charging points needing to be installed. And now we are looking at destroying the sea bed in an effort to find the minerals required to make batteries?
All that versus further developing the vastly improved diesels or other fuels like cow-farts so I can continue to enjoy roast beef.
Im not a luddite, really I am not but I just think EV's are not the (only) solution.
There, thats off my chest.
K ;)
kind of tits up,but i think the same, a new salution ,but same pproblem,pass the roast oh no beefing, ps enjoy be nice,it could be me, ok pj
 
I too am very sceptical of Electric cars etc but I guess that is how things were when the Horse and cart was phased out disbelief and wonder, but not for me electric , I will stick with Petrol and Diesel as long as I can, I read somewhere that someone was fined for staying at a charging point too long because the car would not charge, he had just got the vehicle and was doing the charging bit incorrectly apparently, bet he loved the car after that Hee Hee.
you could say he's been charged,well, here we go , ok, pj
 
Saw one at COSTCO last Monday, with both doors open, looked cool, but useless in a standard space size carpark,

Tony, do lease the batteries in your Tesla?

No the battery is purchased with the car and has an 8 years unlimited mileage warranty. I’m not a fan of the rear doors but in fact they’re much better than standard doors in a narrow space. They have sensors and if they detect an obstacle they open differently in that they come out a bit, then up, then open out.
 

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