How to connect inverter to 240v system?

Fuses are indeed a protective device.. Your circuit diagram shows a fuse in the 12v dc supply to the inverter which I agree is good protection. However I cannot see any form of protective device on the AC output side of the inverter. The power goes from the inverter to the contactor and then to the sockets with no RCBO or similar in the circuit.
are you in the UK? I am asking as if you are you would be familiar with the 13A UK Plug which has a fuse on the live pin. THAT is the protection you have on the outlet on each device you plug in. Also the great majority of Inverters sold in the UK Market have a UK 13A Socket as the outlet style - so the plug directly out of the inverter is also protected by a fuse.

No RCBO coming out of the Inverter - very true. Is it required? maybe a nice to have possibly but certainly not a requirement and I am happy wih the fuse protection. Do you fit an RCBO to an inverter outlet? I wonder how many people on this forum have fitted an RCBO between the Inverter Outlet and their AC devices on it? (I think I can have a very good guess mind).

So as per your comment abiut no protection? sorry, but plain wrong. Would you care to go back to your original message and correct/qualify it better?
 
I have a RCD to plug into my inverter. A 13A fuse might protect against overloading wiring and reduce fire risk but my inverter isn’t capable of supplying the 3000W needed to blow it. I don’t think any fuse will burn out soon enough to protect a human from damage. A current of 200mA (0.2A) is enough to kill, unfortunately you could be completely fried before a 13A fuse would blow. RCDs and RCBOs are very much more sensitive and very quick to react. My RCD should trip at 30mA (0.03A) with a speed of 40m/sec (0.04 sec) which is more likely to save a life.
 
are you in the UK? I am asking as if you are you would be familiar with the 13A UK Plug which has a fuse on the live pin. THAT is the protection you have on the outlet on each device you plug in. Also the great majority of Inverters sold in the UK Market have a UK 13A Socket as the outlet style - so the plug directly out of the inverter is also protected by a fuse.

No RCBO coming out of the Inverter - very true. Is it required? maybe a nice to have possibly but certainly not a requirement and I am happy wih the fuse protection. Do you fit an RCBO to an inverter outlet? I wonder how many people on this forum have fitted an RCBO between the Inverter Outlet and their AC devices on it? (I think I can have a very good guess mind).

So as per your comment abiut no protection? sorry, but plain wrong. Would you care to go back to your original message and correct/qualify it better?

The number of people who haven't fitted a RCBO after an inverter is not the issue and I do not wish to change or qualify my earlier message. I make the following points
1 Your wiring diagram does not show a fused plug after the inverter as part of the circuit. Some inverters can be directly wired without the need of a plug. Since you have published your circuit I think this should be clarified as you can't assume people using the diagram will use a fused plug.
2 As Okta points out the 13amp fuse only provides (probably inadequate) overload protection. An RCBO is a life-saving device which is designed to prevent you from getting a fatal electric shock if you touch something live, such as a bare wire. It can also provide some protection against electrical fires. RCDs offer a level of personal protection that ordinary fuses and circuit-breakers cannot provide.
3 If you are happy to only depend on a 13 amp fuse why do you include a RCB and MCBs in the mains circuit? The outputs from the mains and an inverter can be equally lethal.
 
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The number of people who haven't fitted a RCBO after an inverter is not the issue and I do not wish to change or qualify my earlier message. I make the following points
1 Your wiring diagram does not show a fused plug after the inverter as part of the circuit. Some inverters can be directly wired without the need of a plug. Since you have published your circuit I think this should be clarified as you can't assume people using the diagram will use a fused plug.
2 As Okta points out the 13amp fuse only provides (probably inadequate) overload protection. An RCBO is a life-saving device which is designed to prevent you from getting a fatal electric shock if you touch something live, such as a bare wire. It can also provide some protection against electrical fires. RCDs offer a level of personal protection that ordinary fuses and circuit-breakers cannot provide.
3 If you are happy to only depend on a 13 amp fuse why do you include a RCB and MCBs in the mains circuit? The outputs from the mains and an inverter can be equally lethal.
They are referred to as "13A Plugs" - they don't have to have 13A fuses in them. I fit Fuses appropriate to the devices being used. I suggest you learn to do the same.
I uploaded the diagram as a indication of how an inverter can be setup to auto switch - it is not an installation diagram. Yes I can assume people will use a fused plug on any device they plug in as this is a UK Forum, aimed primarily at UK people and in the UK, fused pluged are universally used - and it is for that reason I don't need to clarify further.
Why do I include protection from the mains? I don't know the quality and the wiring of the mains I may plug into, so it is better to be safe (which is why I also use DP MCBs in the CU. Oh no! I didn't say that either! didn't need to as it is irrelevant, as is the need to "show neutrals".
I would say just about every person on this forum has managed to survive without have the constant protection of RCD and MCBS in their life and relied on fuses in the old days when we had "fuse boxes". Are fuses boxes dangerous then? the great majority of houses in the UK have wiring that is not protected by an RCD - either partially or completely - are they all dangerous?
If my circuit is Dangerous then I would suggest that just about every installation of an inverter in a motorhome or campervan is equally dangerous. How about commisioning a petition to have mandarory RCBOs installed on every Inverter - that might be a more useful use of your time as you are wasting it talking to me.
 
I have a RCD to plug into my inverter. A 13A fuse might protect against overloading wiring and reduce fire risk but my inverter isn’t capable of supplying the 3000W needed to blow it. I don’t think any fuse will burn out soon enough to protect a human from damage. A current of 200mA (0.2A) is enough to kill, unfortunately you could be completely fried before a 13A fuse would blow. RCDs and RCBOs are very much more sensitive and very quick to react. My RCD should trip at 30mA (0.03A) with a speed of 40m/sec (0.04 sec) which is more likely to save a life.
Well Done.
 
They are referred to as "13A Plugs" - they don't have to have 13A fuses in them. I fit Fuses appropriate to the devices being used. I suggest you learn to do the same.
I uploaded the diagram as a indication of how an inverter can be setup to auto switch - it is not an installation diagram. Yes I can assume people will use a fused plug on any device they plug in as this is a UK Forum, aimed primarily at UK people and in the UK, fused pluged are universally used - and it is for that reason I don't need to clarify further.
Why do I include protection from the mains? I don't know the quality and the wiring of the mains I may plug into, so it is better to be safe (which is why I also use DP MCBs in the CU. Oh no! I didn't say that either! didn't need to as it is irrelevant, as is the need to "show neutrals".
I would say just about every person on this forum has managed to survive without have the constant protection of RCD and MCBS in their life and relied on fuses in the old days when we had "fuse boxes". Are fuses boxes dangerous then? the great majority of houses in the UK have wiring that is not protected by an RCD - either partially or completely - are they all dangerous?
If my circuit is Dangerous then I would suggest that just about every installation of an inverter in a motorhome or campervan is equally dangerous. How about commisioning a petition to have mandarory RCBOs installed on every Inverter - that might be a more useful use of your time as you are wasting it talking to me.

Thank you for the discussion. I leave others to make their own judgement.
 
Ok. We would like to connect an inverter to the leisure batteries and to the built in 240 volt system in our 2004 Burstner T-Star 680. Every inverter I have seen has a 240v socket on it for the outlet and I cannot work out how to do it. Would like to have it permanently connected to the 240v circuit. We already have a built-in inverter fitted which just runs the air con unit, but this doesn’t run the sockets. Is there a simple or easy way of connecting this inverter to the 240v system on the m/h? Will I have to buy a second inverter, and if so where canI get one (fitted or diy - we are near Thirsk) Or have I missed something?
Hi Alice, I am also having an inverter fitted in my van, mainly to dry my hair ! I also live near Thirsk and rang Kurt who is local . www.mobilecaravanservices.biz ...07743 387211. He is happy to come out free and discuss the options available. Although it appears to be a simple task to connect an inverter I would rather have a professional put my system in. I have read on the internet that it can blow the inverter if connected to the 240v system and forget to disconnect it. I am not knowledgeable enough to advise but have after searching the net for pure sign wave, modified sign wave and reading what they can both do have chosen one to suit my needs. Hope all goes well . Joy
 
Going back to the RCD on inverter debate. I still do not think that it is essential to have an RDC on the output on an inverter in their typical use.
However, I went to use the external socket a couple of days ago (I have a 16A Mk Commando Socket underneath powered by the 2500W Inverter or EHU depending on the Auto-Switch) with a power tool running off the inverter and I realised I had switched from my normal extension lead with a in-line RCD to my normal hookup lead in order to save carrying two long leads - and that hookup lead is just a straight lead with a 16A Plug and Socket.
So this meant I was using a power tool with sharp blades and did not have any RCD protection - and THAT is not advisable I DO fully concur!

So remedied this by fitting one of the RCD Sockets that I often fit in campers when people don't want a full-blown CU with RCDs and MCBs and just want a single socket (I am not a fan on relying on a plug-in RCD from an EHU as it can be such an unknown quantity and people often forget to plug in the RCD - an RCD is essential for an EHU input IMO).

Timeguard RCD
by David, on Flickr
So this is now Inverter ==> DP RCD ==> Contactor ==> Sockets.

This is a Double Pole RCD by Timeguard, a Popular and Reliable brand. The one above is a Passive RCD, which means it will only 'trip' on a fault or if you press the test button. They also have a very similar Active RCD, which 'trips' on a fault or whenever power is removed so you would need to actively reset it each time (hence the name). And when it trips, both Live and Neutral are disconnected (another essential feature for a camper/motorhome with an EHU plugged in).
The Active version is very useful if say you are using something you could forget is plugged in and you don't want to turn on by itself if power is restored.
 
why not just run a new inverter only ring main, that way you avoid the onboard charger and fridge problems. have a master on/off switch to disconnect it when not in use.
 
I have a on off on 2 pole switch common connected to distribution feed one side to hook up other to inverter Simple and foolproof,have your own choice of protection In the distribution
 
Ok. We would like to connect an inverter to the leisure batteries and to the built in 240 volt system in our 2004 Burstner T-Star 680. Every inverter I have seen has a 240v socket on it for the outlet and I cannot work out how to do it. Would like to have it permanently connected to the 240v circuit. We already have a built-in inverter fitted which just runs the air con unit, but this doesn’t run the sockets. Is there a simple or easy way of connecting this inverter to the 240v system on the m/h? Will I have to buy a second inverter, and if so where canI get one (fitted or diy - we are near Thirsk) Or have I missed something?

Hi. If you have the Waeco Easycool aircon, then the inverter supplied with this has auto transfer from mains to battery. If mains is present, it passes it through to the aircon unit, if not, it uses the 12v battery connection. Only really intended for use when driving as it kills the leisure battery, and doesn't really do the alternator much good either.

Looks like this https://images.app.goo.gl/BEuwj1LqG8jjBKzf7

Mine had this system, but I have now removed the aircon unit as we never used it (replaced with mini heki) and connected the inverter to the existing mains sockets via a separate breaker. Also needed to fit a separate on off switch as this was previously controlled by the aircon unit.

Now all the sockets are powered from the inverter (when switched on) while off grid and automatically switched to mains when on hook up.

Sure someone will point out the technical error of my ways somewhere, but this set up has now working fine for five years with nothing exploding or catching fire :)

Hope that helps.
 
Just a word of caution, never plug into the mains while the inverter is on, you will blow the inverter. I forgot and blew 2 inverters. I now run 2 seperate circuits and couple them together by a lead with a plug on each end when wild camping only so that I can use all the sockets in the van fed from the inverter.

Phil.
 
Just a word of caution, never plug into the mains while the inverter is on, you will blow the inverter. I forgot and blew 2 inverters. I now run 2 seperate circuits and couple them together by a lead with a plug on each end when wild camping only so that I can use all the sockets in the van fed from the inverter.

Phil.
Hmmm.
What you have made there is generally known as a "suicide lead". Not really to be recommended!

If somebody wants to be able to use all the sockets fed by either an Inverter or by mains, then there are much safer ways to do that.
 
Hmmm.
What you have made there is generally known as a "suicide lead". Not really to be recommended!

If somebody wants to be able to use all the sockets fed by either an Inverter or by mains, then there are much safer ways to do that.
Can you elaborate on that a little, I've tried wiring the inverter directly to the mains hook up input so all the sockets work off it but it blew the inverter when I was using the it and my son plugged me into the mains without telling me. Every plug is fused and is also fed though the main contact breaker so I don't see the problem. How else would you suggest?

Phil.
 
Can you elaborate on that a little, I've tried wiring the inverter directly to the mains hook up input so all the sockets work off it but it blew the inverter when I was using the it and my son plugged me into the mains without telling me. Every plug is fused and is also fed though the main contact breaker so I don't see the problem. How else would you suggest?

Phil.
If you mean my comment about the "Suicide Lead", you said "I now run 2 seperate circuits and couple them together by a lead with a plug on each end when wild camping only so that I can use all the sockets in the van fed from the inverter. ". A plug on each end means that you will have 240V on exposed pins if one end is left unplugged. There is a very good reason why a supply is always provided in the format of a 'female' socket whose connections are covered and cannot come into contact with fingers!
Often people use these kind of leads (and also make hookup leads with a plug outlet to match the incorrectly fitted hookup socket (which MUST be a hookup PLUG)) and say 'oh, it's safe as I know how to use it safely' but along comes someone else in the van on a trip or on a campsite and BOOM! (and damage to an inverter could be the least of your worries :( )

Using a lead like that will also put mains 240V and the inverter 240V output together should someone plug into the mains unwittingly (like your son did already). This will likely damage not only the inverter but devices plugged into sockets as you are feeding them two different mains sources with almost certainly different voltages and very out of sync sine waves. A bad idea!

How else would I suggest?
Well, #1 is to immediately cut the plugs of that lead so you never use it again
#2 - You need to have a setup so the output of an inverter can never be connected to the mains hookup supply (it doesn't matter if there is an MCB or an RCD between - you just don't do that!)

How to do #2?
You could have the EHU hookup cable that goes to the CU going through a plug and socket first. and then you could feed the CU with either the EHU (CU plug into EHU internal Socket) or Inverter (CU plug into Inverter Socket).


You cou
91mclxK7iML._SL1500_.jpg
ld use a Changeover Switch (see picture for example) instead of separate sockets to make it a cleaner operation - I have one of these fitted in my conversion that I use as a polarity reverser, but they are usually used to feed an installation from 1 of two different sources (in your case, EHU or Inverter)

The one shown here fits in a CU. you can also get ones that are standalone.


Other options include using a Contactor, which is a 240V Relay that senses when a supply is live and switches over to it. This is a good option for an automatic transfer between an Inverter (the default) and EHU (goes to EHU whenever that is live).


So basically lots of options, but all those are safe. A Suicide Lead is not!

Last thing to remember ... when setting up the transfer, remember to avoid having the Mains Battery Charger fed by the Inverter! It won't cause any damage, but will just waste power using battery energy to charge the same battery ;)
 
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If you mean my comment about the "Suicide Lead", you said "I now run 2 seperate circuits and couple them together by a lead with a plug on each end when wild camping only so that I can use all the sockets in the van fed from the inverter. ". A plug on each end means that you will have 240V on exposed pins if one end is left unplugged. There is a very good reason why a supply is always provided in the format of a 'female' socket whose connections are covered and cannot come into contact with fingers!
Often people use these kind of leads (and also make hookup leads with a plug outlet to match the incorrectly fitted hookup socket (which MUST be a hookup PLUG)) and say 'oh, it's safe as I know how to use it safely' but along comes someone else in the van on a trip or on a campsite and BOOM! (and damage to an inverter could be the least of your worries :( )

Using a lead like that will also put mains 240V and the inverter 240V output together should someone plug into the mains unwittingly (like your son did already). This will likely damage not only the inverter but devices plugged into sockets as you are feeding them two different mains sources with almost certainly different voltages and very out of sync sine waves. A bad idea!

How else would I suggest?
Well, #1 is to immediately cut the plugs of that lead so you never use it again
#2 - You need to have a setup so the output of an inverter can never be connected to the mains hookup supply (it doesn't matter if there is an MCB or an RCD between - you just don't do that!)

How to do #2?
You could have the EHU hookup cable that goes to the CU going through a plug and socket first. and then you could feed the CU with either the EHU (CU plug into EHU internal Socket) or Inverter (CU plug into Inverter Socket).


You cou
91mclxK7iML._SL1500_.jpg
ld use a Changeover Switch (see picture for example) instead of separate sockets to make it a cleaner operation - I have one of these fitted in my conversion that I use as a polarity reverser, but they are usually used to feed an installation from 1 of two different sources (in your case, EHU or Inverter)

The one shown here fits in a CU. you can also get ones that are standalone.


Other options include using a Contactor, which is a 240V Relay that senses when a supply is live and switches over to it. This is a good option for an automatic transfer between an Inverter (the default) and EHU (goes to EHU whenever that is live).


So basically lots of options, but all those are safe. A Suicide Lead is not!

Last thing to remember ... when setting up the transfer, remember to avoid having the Mains Battery Charger fed by the Inverter! It won't cause any damage, but will just waste power using battery energy to charge the same battery ;)
Or you could buy a Victron or similiar inverter with UPS.
 
It does not really answer the question of how you can share a socket between a mains hookup and an existing inverter safely though
Thanks for your info it was really good advice. In my own defense I have a large red light next to the socket which glows when the inverter is switched on and both ends of the suicide lead are unpluged when the light is off, as I am the only one to opperate the electrics, I only have myself to blame should I mess up.
Thanks again.

Phil.
 

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