Aires in UK, just a thought.

[Barge1914]

Aires in UK, just a thought.

Just some thoughts from a damp Alpine meadow...




I’m not sure where this has got to but I understood Admin was in the process of getting motorhomer.com into the position of being able to certify land/ property owners to set up CU/CL type sites for motorhomes in the UK.




I am aware of the interminable discussions on this and other sites bewailing the difficulties getting local authorities interested in establishing Aires, understandably so given the cost to the public purse, the pressure on LA land especially in urban areas, the difficulty of presenting a fundable business case, vested interests, Nimbyism...and so on. Invariably an uphill struggle and slow to produce results. Worth the effort I’m sure, and I’m aware of a very small number of folks battling thanklessly on this front...with so far just a few hard won successes.




Just a thought...who has land (in nice locations), often the need for supplementary income, the equipment on hand and already paid for to dig, lay gravel hard standings and drains at cost without having to pay contractors? Who can make decisions quickly in their own interest, without recourse to committees, ratepayers, and the public purse?

...Farmers.




There’s clearly a developing need for Aires as POIs are vanishing far more rapidly than they are being created against a background of burgeoning motorhome ownership. As in other countries, a mix of different types both with and without services can be workable, subject to the availability of utilities and the level of financial commitment, and also of course subject to achieving a reasonable distribution of serviced sites within any area.




Whilst the financial commitment required to meet the space and service standards required for CUs by the large caravan clubs may be off-putting to a lot of small farmers, I would imagine the more modest requirements typical of a small motorhome Aire would represent a less onerous commitment. Of course other issues such as insurance and planning controls would need to be addressed...but I guess Phil has already got a good grip on these.




I wonder whether there might be some mileage in holding some exploratory discussions with the NFU with regard to ironing out any issues, and developing a strategy and prototype information package with which to approach farmers...and indeed which farmers to approach. There may be complications for example for tenant farmers and all sorts of questions which need to be looked into. Better perhaps discussed with NFU at first rather than learning on the hoof by talking to lots of individual farmers? Given the NFU also acts as an insurer they may have a contribution there too?




I am aware I’m at risk of entering egg sucking territory here?, but I am intrigued to know what may or may not be afoot, and what an organisation like ours may achieve or aspire to by pooling efforts and cooperating with other organisations where there may be mutual interests.




Any thoughts??

 

[Flostravels]

I am sure there are many of us who, like me, are really keen to tackle the pitiful UK situation. But I am sure it does need to be co-ordinated.
Farmers - yes, I like the NFU idea. Spmething like France Passion which we find excellent.
National Trust. There was a site on A Nat Trust property we visited recently. Are they softening?
Etc.

I would be happy to participate in a co-ordinated group to try and move this on. We have a lot of work to do to get near some of our European friends!!

 

[Barge1914]

Yes coordination is the key. To produce a paper to sell the idea to the farming community would be a good start. (and may be a useful tool in other situations). It would need a full analysis of all the issues, problemns to be resolved, burocratic hurdles, typical costs involved, potential incomes etc., feedback and examples of rural Aires/ motorhome CUs that have already been set up...there are a few already up and running in Scotland, there’s the the Croft Aires in the Islands...European examples and more.I’m sure.

To to do so would need pooling of knowledge with those stalwarts in WC and Motorhomer who have already experience in this area.

it would involve discussion with NFU and their input...whatever is produced needs to be attractive to farmers...not just motorhomers.

Once a a credible document has been prepared it could be re-edited as an article for inclusion in the NFUs magazine and other publications targeted at farmers.

So far just ideas, but yes I’d be happy to collaborate/contribute...a winter project perhaps when we are all somewhat less scattered. First of all however it needs to be established that there is sufficient interest and commitment in our motorhome community to embark on such a venture...and whether our members would actually be willing to commit to using such facilities if they got off the ground...I’m aware we include a lot of solitary individuals to whom anything organised is an anathema. Hence perhaps there’s a need to stress small, and simple as opposed to the more elaborate demands and offerings of the Caravanning Clubs.

I’d love to hear some thoughts from Mr Admin without whom nothing on this forum will take wings....

I am under no illusion this would incur a fair bit of work...I’ve previously been involved in efforts to encourage French Communes and Waterway Authorities to agree to more winter moorings for barges...boy was that frustrating!!!

 

[Clunegapyears]

Like?

Great idea to stimulate more parkings /aires. And farms are often in beautiful locations ... but have you looked at how many are already offering CS and CLs through the Campaing and Caravan Club and the Caravan and Motorhome Club? We use these quite a lot in the South. If offering EHU, there are associated on-going costs and annual inspections. Waste has to be disposed of as commercial waste. I do believe though, that the farmers get to keep all the money that charge, less what they declare for tax ?. But if must be financially worth it for so many to do it.

If EHU is not offered, CS and CLs are often as little as £5/6, which is about the price of many overseas aires and sometimes less. We like them as they are limited to 5 units and you have space around you, unlike some aires that are more like packed car parks. Most of the ones we’ve stayed on have views and are peaceful, other than the odd farm animal and at harvest time.

if more interest could be stimulated, for instance through one of the NFU publications, it would be easy for farmers to promote their Aire through the numerous motorhome parking apps already out there. As well, of course, the new motorhomer one! They wouldn’t have to sign up to one of the caravan clubs then, and abide by their rules. And us punters wouldn’t have to join the big clubs.

 

[Picket]

I approached Tesco with the suggestion they might consider a few trial sites, similar to those offered by some of the french supermarkets like Super-U. Possibly try near the ferry ports for starters. I outlined the benefits & what would be useful to have but they were no interested. I suppose the argument would be travellers, possibly justified. Look at this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...p-travellers-destroying-historic-brewery.html

 

[Barge1914]

Yes we’ve also used a lot of CLs. Set up by the Caravan Club most, but not all, tend to reflect primarily the requirements of Caravaners. In many the land take for just 5 caravans is enormous. Each pitch levelled up with space for a car, a caravan and an awning, plus a very generous distance between pitches. Add in an extensive electric infrastructure and a fair amount of gravel track to give access this represents a considerable investment for a farmer who has to charge a lot to recover his investment. On the other hand there are many which are little more than a field. Wherein lies a problem. Many motorhomers travel throughout the year. For example, a few years back in winter we tried to do a circuit of the North York’s Moors using CLs. Most were closed, of the 5 or 6 that claimed to be open all year all but 2 refused access due to the soft ground...and at one of those someone (not us) had to be dragged out by a tractor.

The CC&MC, despite claiming to be motorhome friendly seems only to pay lip service to attract motorhome members. Decision making and orientation is still dominated by tuggers and ex-tuggers. Suggestions made on their forum for simpler more motorhome orientated facilities have received very short shrift indeed. The addition of a drain grid on Club Sites where motorhomers already pay dearly for services they don’t Need is barely a gesture.

Nothing wrong with a variety of solutions for different needs and desires, and certainly existing CLs cater for one type. But as you know those of us who travel extensively abroad are perfectly happy with much more modest or even minimal facilities and space standards when they cost less and are in nice places...provided we can find somewhere to empty and fill every few days.

To boost the the numbers of small motorhome Aires reasonably quickly needs something that farmers can provide at minimal initial cost before seeing some income. After all if Wildcampers are content to park up in lay-bys and tiny rural car parks a small gravel patch for 2 or 3 vans on the farmers side of the hedge isn’t that much different...other than it’s legal, you can’t be moved on or fined and can enjoy a beer or two in peace. Of course where they can be convinced the demand supports it there’s nothing to stop them providing something more grand.

 

[Biggarmac]

A farmer near Stirling asked me about setting up a campsite. I have suggested to them that a m/h aire might be a good idea. It is not that cheap a thing to set up if they want to make it an all year site. They will need to excavate a metre down and then fill and consolidate with type 1 infill. Paying for the emptying the septic tanks and for the cost of metered water means that the farmers need to charge a fee that covers their costs. CL & CSs that are on grass and mainly caravans are not as costly. Lots of CLs and CSs are clising as they are not viable. If we expect to have aires we need to be willing to pay for them.

 

[Barge1914]

A farmer near Stirling asked me about setting up a campsite. I have suggested to them that a m/h aire might be a good idea. It is not that cheap a thing to set up if they want to make it an all year site. They will need to excavate a metre down and then fill and consolidate with type 1 infill. Paying for the emptying the septic tanks and for the cost of metered water means that the farmers need to charge a fee that covers their costs. CL & CSs that are on grass and mainly caravans are not as costly. Lots of CLs and CSs are clising as they are not viable. If we expect to have aires we need to be willing to pay for them.

Yes, most certainly on good valuable quality loamy or clay arable land, deeply plowed for years it will take a lot of work and fill to consolidate the ground for a large serviced Aire or CL/CS and hence a larger investment, especially when the proposed site is remote from existing utilities. On the other hand on well consolidated sandy heathland, a stony or gravelly alluvial base, or upland grazing land a lot less may be involved, and the per acre value of the agricultural land lost to use by the Aire will also be less. I’m suggesting first looking at the low hanging fruit, spotting the opportunities where investment costs can be less. There are doubtless plenty of farms with good solid access tracks, opportunities near existing access points, near buildings with water and drainage where provision of an extra tap or two and a lift up manhole cover may not be too difficult. Not a few French and German Aires/stellplatz are quite modest, just a patch or three of gravel off a track, drain and tap (or none at all), if electricity is available nearby that can be added. (In fact I am also describing some of the simpler CLs as well).

Given my profession, I trust I can appreciate the practicalities and cost implications pretty well, and having prepared a fair number of business cases (albeit for larger undertakings such as hospitals and suchlike ) I hope I do not underestimate what is needed to pull a project together.

Farmers are busy folk and most can’t afford too much time to delve into all the administrative, planning and legal implications of setting up an Aire, especially on a small scale. I suspect they might be a lot more open to suggestion if the motorhome community, perhaps in consultation with NFU and other relevant bodies could come up with one or more ‘model’ business case documents that they could adapt to their own local circumstances. As an aside I suspect something of this nature may also be helpful and demonstrate some credibility in dealings with local authorities.

From my trawling of various motorhome forums on this on this subject I can find a lot of vague generalities but little of concrete substance. I somehow suspect to most authorities dealing with the motorhome community is akin to herding cats!

I am am slightly apprehensive that the post has attracted relatively little response. I wonder if it should be on the Wildcamping site as this forum seems rather quiet by contrast, or is it simply that there is really little stomach for getting involved in this...hmm?

 

[Biggarmac]

Perhaps everyone is waiting for someone to take the lead. Could that someone be you Barge 1914?

 

[Barge1914]

Tempted, but sadly admin has abandoned the CL licensing route as there are others already established in this market. Without this my suggestions are unrealisable. However I would see some merit adding ‘unofficial’ farmstops as POIs...much like pubstops (which themselves without licensing lack official status and may be considered ‘wildcamping’? However this could never be pursued through formal channels with NFU, and would rely on members giving feedback on farms known to accept the odd overnighting motorhome in return for a modest consideration.

I’m not certain that apart from a CL certification from a club there exists any way to licence/certify a simple continental type Aire on private property. And as far as I can see no UK Club is certifying private sites that don’t offer at least basic services and don’t offer spacing standards similar to those of CC&M clubs CLs which were established mainly with tuggers in mind. New kid on the block Freedom Camping is going down the same route, but not restricting access to non members like the others. Nobody is really addressing the specifics of the touring motorhomes who wants to turn up and stop without booking, and needs little more than an inexpensive space to park and access to services only every few days.

Continental Aires are generally provided through a work-round of parking regulations, hence they are fussy about the technicality of not exhibiting camping behaviour outside the vehicle. I don’t believe UK parking regs have this leeway...but I’d love to be wrong.

I admit I don’t know under what powers Councils like Canterbury provide Aires...but I guess they are writing their own bye laws and approving themselves so that might be somewhat easier to achieve!

 

[Biggarmac]

The people I have been talking to near Stirling are going to apply for planning permission. This is where we could possibly help by having pictures and case studies that any farmer could present to the local planning officials. If a CS CL type arrangements then membership of a club comes into play. What we are looking for are open to all aires. The farmers would need to have a good reason to give up some of their land for this and to recoup the planning expenses.
Councils normally use a corner of a larger parking area ; so not a lot of extra expense.

 

[Barge1914]

The people I have been talking to near Stirling are going to apply for planning permission. This is where we could possibly help by having pictures and case studies that any farmer could present to the local planning officials. If a CS CL type arrangements then membership of a club comes into play. What we are looking for are open to all aires. The farmers would need to have a good reason to give up some of their land for this and to recoup the planning expenses.
Councils normally use a corner of a larger parking area ; so not a lot of extra expense.

That seems to be what these people... https://www.freedomcampingclub.org
seem to be doing. However I’m not sure if they are just waiting for farmers and others to come to them, or if they are pro-actively promoting themselves, researching possible sites, and helping with material for applications. They do not seem to be promoting motorhome specific sites. You can read their blurb for potential site owners on their site.

 

[Biggarmac]

Freedom Camping are just listing and/or setting up basic campsites for all types of units. Their stress seems to be on enjoying the countryside as a holiday destination.They do not seem to be in the business of setting up aires for motorhomers who are more likely to be moving about frequently, rather than setting up camp a la Freedom campers.
A tie up between the NFU and a motorhoming lobby group could well give more income to farmers and more private aires in the UK.
Aires on the continent are not limited to 5 units size and there are many places in the UK where larger aire type sites could be commercially viable.

 

[Barge1914]

Exactly what I think. However I do not know how legally farmers can do this other than through a club which has the status to certify sites...ie. as CL/CS sites. I don’t know if the physical requirements that are currently required for all CL/CSs come from the certifying clubs themselves, or from some legislatory requirement that they must follow.

The minimum for a basic motorhome Aire is adequate access, and a firm enough surface to stand on, much like a wild camping spot. To these basics can be added water, emptying and electricity and other frills according to demand and price bracket. As you know on the continent Aires come in a whole variety of shapes, sizes and service and price levels. Not all Aires need on site services...so long as services are available within a reasonable distance at other locations. What is provided can be tailored to local circumstances, and may at minimum be no more than permission to park in a field or on an existing hard stand.

I suspect however the continentals’ workaround classifying Aires as parking places may not wash with UK regs and planning law. And I would imagine the NFU would not be able to endorse to their members anything that has no legal status, and which as such would be uninsurable.

I’m pretty sure others in Wildcamping must have investigated the legalities of setting up Aires in UK before and may be able to enlighten us on these issues....Anyone???

 

[Caz]

I don't know much about the legalities but I do know that the CMC's Certified Locations and the C&CC's Certificated Sites operate under the Clubs' licences, that is why they have to adhere to the "rules" laid down by the Clubs including the one that says they are only open to members.

Personally, although I am a member of both Clubs, I don't use these sites very often. They are mostly expensive for me as I travel solo and they seem to charge £12 - £15 a night, I can get a cheaper pitch with better facilities on a proper Club site. Also, the Club sites are mostly close to towns and places of interest whereas the CLs and CSs mostly seem to be in the middle of nowhere, although there are obviously exceptions to both of these points. I found a brilliant CMC CL at Penrith last year for £5 a night and only a 20 min walk from the centre of the town.

I think there are other motorhomers who, like me, want places to spend the night where there is a bit more than farmland around. (I can see fields and cows anytime through my bedroom window at home. :Wink_Emoji: ) All the Aires that I have stayed on in France have been close to interesting places, with shops, bars, restaurants etc nearby as well. (Except Cite Europe, that just had the shops, bars, restaurants etc.)

 

[Biggarmac]

The CS, CL and now freedom campers sites are more for caravans and some tents. If landowners find they have a good client base they sometimes change to a site with planning permission to allow them to take more units and to stop being tied to one club. What I am suggesting is that we (the motorhoming community) put together a case which farmers, and other landowners can take to their local planning authority. This could have pictures and suggested spacings using the information from already existing aires both in the UK and abroad.