Battery charging

[Carrotts]

Hi. Thinking of replacing my 2x leisure110ah batts. Been told /read. Different forums that a motorhome does not have a battery charger but a power supply that will charge batts up to 80%.how do you know what is fitted to your m home also for normal 3day off hook up.1night on hook up what battery would you recommend. Being honest I have got completely lost and confused with batteries ranging from £89. To over£500. Bosch Varta. Banner. Yausa. Anyone got any good choices. YES. I do know you get what you pay for... I also know. Some people have more experience and ideas then I have.and can direct me towards better buys and prices. So now waiting in anticipation for your recommendations Thank you in advance, Ps. Still thinking on. Gasit / gaslow cylinders

 

[wildebus]

Hi. Thinking of replacing my 2x leisure110ah batts. Been told /read. Different forums that a motorhome does not have a battery charger but a power supply that will charge batts up to 80%.how do you know what is fitted to your m home also for normal 3day off hook up.1night on hook up what battery would you recommend. Being honest I have got completely lost and confused with batteries ranging from £89. To over£500. Bosch Varta. Banner. Yausa. Anyone got any good choices. YES. I do know you get what you pay for... I also know. Some people have more experience and ideas then I have.and can direct me towards better buys and prices. So now waiting in anticipation for your recommendations Thank you in advance, Ps. Still thinking on. Gasit / gaslow cylinders

First question. Many are like that, but many are not. Post what info you can and maybe that will reveal the info?

 

[hairydog]

I think you have raised two separate points. The first is about battery chargers. I am sure you have read that motorhomes only have power supplies, not chargers. But like most info on the internet, it is mostly untrue. Most motorhomes are supplied with quite sophisticated multi-stage battery chargers. But knowing what is fitted to yours is pretty difficult in the absense of any information.
As for batteries, I can assure you that you definitely do NOT get what you pay for.
The cost of transporting heavy boxes of acid means that distribution makes a big difference to price.
The fact that batteries have a limited storage life further complicates things.
Brand names are generally well known through big advertising budgets, not through being better products.
There are several different chemistries, different case types, different plate types and different frame types. All these are quite complex, and what is the best for you is again hard to tell without more info.
In general, I recommend Varta Silver Frame batteries, whether VRLA or AGM VRLA.
Otherwise, go by weight: a heavy battery is a good battery. For a 12v battery, it needs to be at least 250g per Ah capacity to be in the "good" category. So a 100Ah one should weigh 25Kg

 

[Molly 3]

Varta powerframe have a good reputation.make and model of your van would help people to advise you.

 

[chas142]

Hi. Thinking of replacing my 2x leisure110ah batts. Been told /read. Different forums that a motorhome does not have a battery charger but a power supply that will charge batts up to 80%.how do you know what is fitted to your m home also for normal 3day off hook up.1night on hook up what battery would you recommend. Being honest I have got completely lost and confused with batteries ranging from £89. To over£500. Bosch Varta. Banner. Yausa. Anyone got any good choices. YES. I do know you get what you pay for... I also know. Some people have more experience and ideas then I have.and can direct me towards better buys and prices. So now waiting in anticipation for your recommendations Thank you in advance, Ps. Still thinking on. Gasit / gaslow cylinders

I am about to replace my original flat plate Gel battery, its 18 years old, so its lasted very well and would still be fine in the summer. I am looking to fit:- https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-110ah-leoch-powabloc-tubular-gel-battery

This powabloc gel has lots of advantages, read the info on it, 6 years warranty, 2000 cycles, ish, charges quicker than a flat gel plate battery. There are other batteries that charge faster, AGM, EFB, and probably even just your basic battery. Some batteries only cycle 70 times and you will be replacing them in a couple of years.

I will have to modify my fit, I have to fit a different type hold down bracket, I will fit a second battery in a portable battery box, then I can remove that and use to jump start or run lights or other 12v or 240v items. Useful in power cuts.

Check out the leisure batteries at alpha batteries, they give lots of info, how many cycles etc, if you buy of them there is a discount code at the top of this page but you only get it if you go direct. You may get other batteries cheaper on ebay but no one else seem to sell the ones I want.

You should get yourself a cheap digital voltmeter, to check your battery voltage when on charge when running on engine and on 240volt, or solar if you have it. On my Hymer there is a switch on the control box to change to Gel or Lead Acid, you don't want to over charge any battery especially gel.

 

[yorkslass]

Batteries are like a can of worms.
I have had the same gel batteries for 8+years. Just had 3 nights away and they are fine. I don't rely on them for blown air heating but do use a tv . I have 4 fitted, and Phil explained to me that 4 helps spread the load.

 

[trevskoda]

Bosch/varta power frame are good but dont take them down below about 30% so the more you can fill the better,as for chargers thats a mine field depending on whether you have a smart alt or standard one,if changing go for a 3/5 stage maintenance unit on old type alt but newer models will require a B2B unit.
Numax and some cheap chinese units are ok.

 

[chas142]

Batteries are like a can of worms.
I have had the same gel batteries for 8+years. Just had 3 nights away and they are fine. I don't rely on them for blown air heating but do use a tv . I have 4 fitted, and Phil explained to me that 4 helps spread the load.

Yes any more that one spreads the load but also 1 + 1 doesn't equal 2, it equals 2.7 as you are discharging each battery at a lower rate, you get more out of it. With 4 that would be more than 2.7 in practise, but it then gets complicated and you would need to manually test the system to get a true result. I would probably do it as I think I have become a battery geek

 

[Carrotts]

First question. Many are like that, but many are not. Post what info you can and maybe that will reveal the

 

[Minisorella]

I used Alpha with our member discount. Physical size is an issue for me, so I got the largest that would fit and bought 2 x ordinary Alpha 130ah Explorer batteries about 18 months ago and they've been great. My original 10A charger unit had blown up at around the same time and I replaced it with a 25A Ctek multi-stage smart charger which has also been great. I'd love to go for better, more efficient batteries (lithium would be amazing!) but needs must and all that. I can't buy expensive batteries in one go but I can manage to replace cheaper ones more often, so that's the way I look at it.

 

[Carrotts]

Hi. Now I am even more confused. 1+1=2.7 so is that better or worse , my mhome is an autotrail Cheyenne. Se660. 2006. I purchased this second hand. It has lots of extras .half of which I am still trying to understand,, it has a solar panel. As to size. Wattage no idea. Cannot find any leaflets. (Unfortunately. The owner was deceased and it was sold on his partners behalf) All I know at the moment is on ehu. 13.2v reading , take it off ehu , travel 300 plus miles. Battery display shows 12.2. Next morning after hardly any use. Battery reading. 10.7. So I presume battery/battery's are duff,do not want to buy two new batteries fit them. And then find that it needs a different something as it is solar/ehu/battery Halfords say battery's are fine, Autotrail not very helpful,,, lots of the forums have so much contradictionary info So far most of this forums info seems good, Do not want to ask to many different forums as have been reading them and some people were complaining that same questions were appearing on different forums and people should stick to one forum, Not complaining just trying to understand. Am definitely a bit of a thicko. Ooh wife just said that I am more then a bit. So change that too a lot of a thicko.

 

[Minisorella]

I had a similar problem with the batteries being lower after a long drive than they were before. Turned out to be the fuse holder at the alternator which had got wet and was definitely deceased! All my power problems happened at around the same time, so it was a minefield trying to work out what was going on. Worth checking the smaller stuff first maybe? Of course, it's still absolutely possible the batteries are just worn out and not holding a charge.
Oh and there's no-one thicker than me when it comes to electrickery but I'm learning!

 

[hairydog]

Hi. Now I am even more confused. 1+1=2.7 so is that better or worse , my mhome is an autotrail Cheyenne. Se660. 2006. I purchased this second hand. It has lots of extras .half of which I am still trying to understand,, it has a solar panel. As to size. Wattage no idea. Cannot find any leaflets. (Unfortunately. The owner was deceased and it was sold on his partners behalf) All I know at the moment is on ehu. 13.2v reading , take it off ehu , travel 300 plus miles. Battery display shows 12.2. Next morning after hardly any use. Battery reading. 10.7. So I presume battery/battery's are duff,do not want to buy two new batteries fit them. And then find that it needs a different something as it is solar/ehu/battery Halfords say battery's are fine, Autotrail not very helpful,,, lots of the forums have so much contradictionary info So far most of this forums info seems good, Do not want to ask to many different forums as have been reading them and some people were complaining that same questions were appearing on different forums and people should stick to one forum, Not complaining just trying to understand. Am definitely a bit of a thicko. Ooh wife just said that I am more then a bit. So change that too a lot of a thicko.

Let's start by pointing out that you are correct.

There is a lot of contradictory advice out there, and this is probably about the best place to ask. The trouble is few people actually understand what they re writing about, and are just repeating what they've been told. Some are trying to justify their choices.

You can skip this next paragraph unless you really want to know:
I think the 1+1 = 2.7 is referring to useable capacity. If you need (say) 60Ah (that's the equivalent of 1 amp for 60 hours or 2 amps for 30 hours, but it is not the equivalent of 60 amps for 1 hour - if you take high currents, the battery capacity is MUCH smaller. Leisure batteries are rated on the assumption that you take the power over 20 hours or longer. It gets worse: Normally you can only charge a battery up to about 90% full in a motorhome. You should not discharge it below 50% full, so the useable capacity is about 40% of its official rating. So if you did want 60Ah of power from a battery, it needs to be a 150Ah battery bank, at least.

You probably do need to replace the batteries, but best to fix any suspected charging problems first. Running a battery down even once will damage it. Do it a half dozen times and you need to start looking for a replacement. So use the old, probably buggered, batteries as your guinea pigs and only fit new batteries when you know you have a non-hostile charging environment.

First thing to do is buy a multimeter. You can get them very cheaply, but it is probably best getting one that costs between £5 and £10.

While you are waiting for it to arrive, take the batteries out and charge them in the house (or on the charger in the van if you have hookup where it is parked) for at least 24 hours to get them fairly full. Put the batteries back into the motorhome and measure the volltage across the battery terminals. See if it is what the panel display says.

Start the engine and see if the voltage goes up - it should, both on the panel and on the multimeter. That tells whether the charging circuit is working at all.

Next step: Leave the batteries with nothing connected (disconnect one terminal on each battery to be sure) for one hour and measure the voltage across each battery's teminals (separately). Then measure the same thing 24 hours later.

Post the voltages here so we can see the position: it should show whether the batteries are self-discharging or not.

 

[chas142]

I had a similar problem with the batteries being lower after a long drive than they were before. Turned out to be the fuse holder at the alternator which had got wet and was definitely deceased! All my power problems happened at around the same time, so it was a minefield trying to work out what was going on. Worth checking the smaller stuff first maybe? Of course, it's still absolutely possible the batteries are just worn out and not holding a charge.
Oh and there's no-one thicker than me when it comes to electrickery but I'm learning!

It's easier for me as I used to be an Auto Electrician in a previous life. Lots of things changes but I've got an older camper so more my time.

 

[wildebus]

Hi. Now I am even more confused. 1+1=2.7 so is that better or worse , my mhome is an autotrail Cheyenne. Se660. 2006. I purchased this second hand. It has lots of extras .half of which I am still trying to understand,, it has a solar panel. As to size. Wattage no idea. Cannot find any leaflets. (Unfortunately. The owner was deceased and it was sold on his partners behalf) All I know at the moment is on ehu. 13.2v reading , take it off ehu , travel 300 plus miles. Battery display shows 12.2. Next morning after hardly any use. Battery reading. 10.7. So I presume battery/battery's are duff,do not want to buy two new batteries fit them. And then find that it needs a different something as it is solar/ehu/battery Halfords say battery's are fine, Autotrail not very helpful,,, lots of the forums have so much contradictionary info So far most of this forums info seems good, Do not want to ask to many different forums as have been reading them and some people were complaining that same questions were appearing on different forums and people should stick to one forum, Not complaining just trying to understand. Am definitely a bit of a thicko. Ooh wife just said that I am more then a bit. So change that too a lot of a thicko.

right now I think a good first step is knowing what kind of "split charger" you have. If it IS one that that is not treating the batteries ideally, then any new batteries will also not be getting the best treatment.

Bit of a Battery 101, as the americans may say ....
when charging a battery, it goes through different phases to get to its full 100% charge. This Diagram from Victron shows the pattern very well.

Battery Charging Pattern by David, on Flickr
The top line represent the Voltage Level & the bottom line represents the Current Level.

In the BULK mode (which is typically when the battery is at around 80% of charge or lower, the battery takes as much charge as the charger can provide, and the voltage gradually rises until it hits around 14.4V.
Then at around this 80% full level, the battery goes into ABSORPTION (ABS) mode. The Voltage stays at around 14.4V and the current starts to fall away as the battery starts to fill up (if you like an anology, think of having to turn a tap down as a water container is nearly full in order to fill to the brim).
The problem you can get with a basic Split Charge Relay AKA VSR (Voltage Sensing Relay) is that a vehicle alternator typically peaks at around 13.8V (some go higher, some are lower).
As I said, to get to 80% full and beyond, the voltage needs to rise to 14.4V. If your alternator goes no higher than 13.8V, then you will never get to the 80%, let alone 100%.
How to tell if you have a basic Relay system? Check the voltage on the Leisure Battery when the engine is running, and also at the same time check the Starter Battery. If the two are pretty well the same and never go above 13.8V (or so), then chances are you have a Relay setup. If the Leisure Battery starts to go above the Starter Battery, then you have some kind of intelligent Battery to Battery (B2) Charger (which would be great news).

A quick easy rule or thumb checkpoint: Because of inevitable Voltage losses in the cabling, IF you have a relay system, you are unlikely to ever see the Leisure Battery Voltage higher than the Starter Battery.
If you have a B2B Charger, the Leisure Battery Voltage will usually be always above the Starter Battery Voltage.
The above is for when the Engine is running of course (and no other chargers active, like Solar or EHU)

Overall, it doesn't sound like your setup is that healthy, so it is definately worth tracking down what you have fitted before spending any money on replacing anything. given your Motorhome is from 2006, all sorts of changes could have been made in the past due to repairing failed items or upgrades so I wouldn't rely on any manuals or specs as gospel.


NOTE: the numbers above are for typical batteries and setups. There are some weird batteries out there which will have different values and requirements, so it IS possible you have one of those, so bear that in mind when troubleshooting.

 

[hairydog]

If you have a B2B Charger, the Leisure Battery Voltage will usually be always above the Starter Battery Voltage.

Just always when the engine is running.

 

[wildebus]

Just always when the engine is running.

Quite right.
I actually thought I put that point in the post, but the thought in my head didn't make it to my fingers
I've updated the post accordingly. Thanks for pointing this omission out

 

[chas142]

Let's start by pointing out that you are correct.

There is a lot of contradictory advice out there, and this is probably about the best place to ask. The trouble is few people actually understand what they re writing about, and are just repeating what they've been told. Some are trying to justify their choices.

You can skip this next paragraph unless you really want to know:
I think the 1+1 = 2.7 is referring to useable capacity. If you need (say) 60Ah (that's the equivalent of 1 amp for 60 hours or 2 amps for 30 hours, but it is not the equivalent of 60 amps for 1 hour - if you take high currents, the battery capacity is MUCH smaller. Leisure batteries are rated on the assumption that you take the power over 20 hours or longer. It gets worse: Normally you can only charge a battery up to about 90% full in a motorhome. You should not discharge it below 50% full, so the useable capacity is about 40% of its official rating. So if you did want 60Ah of power from a battery, it needs to be a 150Ah battery bank, at least.

You probably do need to replace the batteries, but best to fix any suspected charging problems first. Running a battery down even once will damage it. Do it a half dozen times and you need to start looking for a replacement. So use the old, probably buggered, batteries as your guinea pigs and only fit new batteries when you know you have a non-hostile charging environment.

First thing to do is buy a multimeter. You can get them very cheaply, but it is probably best getting one that costs between £5 and £10.

While you are waiting for it to arrive, take the batteries out and charge them in the house (or on the charger in the van if you have hookup where it is parked) for at least 24 hours to get them fairly full. Put the batteries back into the motorhome and measure the volltage across the battery terminals. See if it is what the panel display says.

Start the engine and see if the voltage goes up - it should, both on the panel and on the multimeter. That tells whether the charging circuit is working at all.

Next step: Leave the batteries with nothing connected (disconnect one terminal on each battery to be sure) for one hour and measure the voltage across each battery's teminals (separately). Then measure the same thing 24 hours later.

Post the voltages here so we can see the position: it should show whether the batteries are self-discharging or not.

If you get a Multimeter only get a digital one, as you need to get accurate readings. If you test it by the way above, check the voltage at the batteries engine running, rev up to about 2000 rpm, note voltage, should be around 14- 14.5volts, switch lights, heater and wipers on rev up again voltage should again rise to about 14volts. If you have low voltages it is probably a charging or a battery fault, or your batteries are still flat,

If you do the disconnecting and leaving test, I would test at one hour, then test, (as hairydog suggested), then test at about 5-6 hours later, then test 24 hours later, at about the same time of day and same temperature, because that can alter the readings, but this test is only a guide, not a battery test.

Alternativaly and probably much better is to buy one of these for about £20:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Car-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
I have various types of battery testers but just got one of these, it is fantastic, I cant say in words how impressed I am with it, it tests batteries, it tests starting and charging circuits, it give a fantastic amount of information for the money but for the person who doesn't understand it also says it in simple language, replace battery, charging or starting fault. Its cheaper for you to buy one of these than to get someone to check it out.

 

[Carrotts]

Hi. Daylight. Tunnel. End. No no. I mean I can start to see daylight at the end of the tunnel. Wildebus. Hairy dog. Thank you. May the sun always shine on you.. too cold at mo. So will wait to do what you suggested. If you both give your addresses I can sell up down here move up there and come knocking. Can you. Will you. Do you know. Oh no I can’t. Wife likes it here. Darn Thanks

 

[hairydog]

Alternativaly and probably much better is to buy one of these for about £20:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-Car-Battery-Tester-Auto-Vehicle-Battery-Analyzer-AGM-CCA-GEL-MICRO-200-Kit/192726174809?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
I have various types of battery testers but just got one of these, it is fantastic.

Please don't.
That is only good for testing the starting capacity of a battery. Utterly useless for testing the charging circuits, which is what we are looking at right now, and almost entirely useless for testing leisure batteries that aere not designed to give starting currents. The test that Halfords did will have used a device like this: they really are only good for testing starter batteries, and even then they are not all that reliable.

I do agree about getting a digital multimeter, but for £5 to £10 that's the only sort you will see.