Smart Alternator Issues

[TimSands]

I would be very grateful for any insights from the electrically savvy on an issue that has come up since I had my leisure batteries upgraded to lithium.

My moho is a florium A class 2020 on a euro 6 ducato.

Earlier this year I took the plunge and replaced my lead acid batteries with lithium. I also doubled the solar, added a battery master to trickle charge the engine battery and had an inverter fitted. I had the work done by a professional installer. I am very happy with the setup and its incredibly helpful to be able to monitor battery capacity and solar charge. With the old system, it was difficult to know how much capacity was available on the leisure batteries.

However I noticed that the alternator does not seem to charge up the lithium habitation battery. It hasn't yet got below 80% since I had it fitted but two hours driving between stops on a recent trip didn't increase the leisure battery charge at all. The moho came with a Nordelettronica NE325 DC-DC unit and this is still in use. When I contacted the installer, he suggested the nordelettronica unit may not be working. I dropped by his workshop this week to see if it needed replacing. He told me that when he tested the output from the alternator it was only 12.6v and so not enough to put a charge into the lithium battery. He suggested that it might be a faulty earth problem.

My moho has stop start and I believe that means it has a smart alternator. I wasn't really aware what a smart alternator was before this week but understand it reduces the charge when it is not needed as part of lowering emissions. I understand the DC-DC unit is supposed to prompt the smart alternator to provide sufficient current to charge the leisure battery.

I'm left with not knowing what to do to get the alternator charging the battery whilst driving. At the moment it is not a big issue as my battery capacity is significantly enhanced and solar plus when on hook up will charge it up sufficiently. But in winter it will be more of an issue. On reflection, I suspect this issue might predate the lithium battery upgrade. I had the 12volt cut out on me last winter within 30 minutes of parking up after a two hour drive and fortunately my weekend was saved by the site having a spare pitch with hook up. I put it down to failing batteries and brought forward the upgrade but I now wonder if it was an alternator charging problem.

Grateful for any wisdom on this and advice on wo might sort this. My installer saw this as an alternator problem (and I am booked in for service and MOT next month so could ask the garage to investigate. On the other hand if it is something to do with the nordelettronica kit, then it's a habitation side issue.

Thanks in anticipation

 

[SquirrellCook]

I would be very grateful for any insights from the electrically savvy on an issue that has come up since I had my leisure batteries upgraded to lithium.

My moho is a florium A class 2020 on a euro 6 ducato.

Earlier this year I took the plunge and replaced my lead acid batteries with lithium. I also doubled the solar, added a battery master to trickle charge the engine battery and had an inverter fitted. I had the work done by a professional installer. I am very happy with the setup and its incredibly helpful to be able to monitor battery capacity and solar charge. With the old system, it was difficult to know how much capacity was available on the leisure batteries.

However I noticed that the alternator does not seem to charge up the lithium habitation battery. It hasn't yet got below 80% since I had it fitted but two hours driving between stops on a recent trip didn't increase the leisure battery charge at all. The moho came with a Nordelettronica NE325 DC-DC unit and this is still in use. When I contacted the installer, he suggested the nordelettronica unit may not be working. I dropped by his workshop this week to see if it needed replacing. He told me that when he tested the output from the alternator it was only 12.6v and so not enough to put a charge into the lithium battery. He suggested that it might be a faulty earth problem.

My moho has stop start and I believe that means it has a smart alternator. I wasn't really aware what a smart alternator was before this week but understand it reduces the charge when it is not needed as part of lowering emissions. I understand the DC-DC unit is supposed to prompt the smart alternator to provide sufficient current to charge the leisure battery.

I'm left with not knowing what to do to get the alternator charging the battery whilst driving. At the moment it is not a big issue as my battery capacity is significantly enhanced and solar plus when on hook up will charge it up sufficiently. But in winter it will be more of an issue. On reflection, I suspect this issue might predate the lithium battery upgrade. I had the 12volt cut out on me last winter within 30 minutes of parking up after a two hour drive and fortunately my weekend was saved by the site having a spare pitch with hook up. I put it down to failing batteries and brought forward the upgrade but I now wonder if it was an alternator charging problem.

Grateful for any wisdom on this and advice on wo might sort this. My installer saw this as an alternator problem (and I am booked in for service and MOT next month so could ask the garage to investigate. On the other hand if it is something to do with the nordelettronica kit, then it's a habitation side issue.

Thanks in anticipation

Unless the rules have changed, and they often do. When I read the Euro six spec. It stated that no changes to the electrical system were allowed. Doing so would invalidate the Euro 6. With the Euro 6 Van I purchased there was the option for an auxiliary power supply.

Mark

 

[Okta]

The moho came with a Nordelettronica NE325 DC-DC unit and this is still in use. When I contacted the installer, he suggested the nordelettronica unit may not be working. I dropped by his workshop this week to see if it needed replacing. He told me that when he tested the output from the alternator it was only 12.6v and so not enough to put a charge into the lithium battery. He suggested that it might be a faulty earth problem.

The DC-DC charger is designed to overcome the lower voltage output of a smart alternator. If the installer thinks the12.6V output is the problem then I think you need to take it someone who understands the modern technology.

 

[wildebus]

from what I have seen recently on a few vehicles, the more modern way of using voltage detection to activate a B2B rather than the "old-fashioned" D+ alternator signal is no longer reliable on Smart-Alternator equipped vehicles due to the low voltages generally put out by the alternator stopping the B2Bs activating reliably (even when they claim to have "smart alternator profiles").
I don't have one myself so am not able to do any prolonged trouble-shooting, but have found going back to using the D+ has proven much better.

The NE325 I am pretty sure does use a D+ signal to activate. However, if that signal is coming from an NE shunt box, it is a 'spoofed' D+ signal, not a real one I think, and is created by a VSR type relay. If that VSR (Voltage Sensing Relay) is itself not turning on as the voltage from the Alterantor is too low to enable it, you won't get that D+ signal into the NE325.
Unfortunately, the only NE setup I have worked on in a van with a Smart Alternator had a faulty NE B2B so I couldn't check its behaviour in any way other than watch it blow fuses

Something that some people find successful and a way around the Smart Alternator issues is to try turning the van headlights on. That extra load can cause the Alternator to ramp up its voltage output.

 

[Okta]

I have never had a B2B without D+ activation and was blissfully unaware that some units relied on voltage activation. Why would anyone design a voltage activated B2B when it is clearly not going to work properly with a smart alternator? Every day is a school day and thank you @wildebus for explaining this. When I update my new van to lithium and a bigger B2B I will make sure I watch out for this pitfall.

 

[wildebus]

I have never had a B2B without D+ activation and was blissfully unaware that some units relied on voltage activation. Why would anyone design a voltage activated B2B when it is clearly not going to work properly with a smart alternator? Every day is a school day and thank you @wildebus for explaining this. When I update my new van to lithium and a bigger B2B I will make sure I watch out for this pitfall.

this trend started with relays - the VSR type meaning installers didn't have to route a D+ wire to the relay (which honestly does make installs much easier) and then continued to many B2Bs.
the typical install of an Orion B2B will have a 100% reliance on voltage levels to go on and off for example, but on that unit you do have the option to use a high or low signal to override (or work in conjunction).
My own B2Bs you can program to work purely on Voltage, or using a 'sense' input which itself could be programmed for a level detection or a straight presence - so can use the D+. (this sense input is a good option as using voltage on the power cable can give the wrong voltage due to voltage dropping and adds another potential issue. Using a dedicated sense cable that draws no current means you are basing the operation on the genuine starter battery voltage which - IMO - is much better. This is how I have programmed mine, but I have a dumb alternator (thank god!)

 

[TimSands]

Thank you so much for your help Wildebus and others on this. I went back to where the van is stored this afternoon to have a look at the NE BtoB. Its a very unuser friendly piece of kit. Allegedly a green LED flashes on activating the unit to say what battery setting is in use but no green LED was flashing on my one. I'm pretty sure there isn't a fault with the alternator: I have had no problems with the engine battery at all. Is it your view that I would be better off with the Victron orion unit given the ability to change settings via the app? if people have managed to overcome the smart alternator issues with that unit properly fitted then I would hope that would be the case for my van. In the meantime, I will try running with the lights on when I need to charge the battery.

 

[wildebus]

I'd be louth to suggest swapping out a unit without further investigations. don't want to get a new unit and find the issue was elsewhere.