Water heating

Carrotts

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Hi all. I remember a year ago a thread on water heating. Cannot remember by who and I cannot find it now. It was to do with veh bat/ leisure bat. When they were fully charged driving /solar the power was switched to the water heater and when the batts dropped a bit. It switched back to charging batts. A continuos cycle. Anyone remember it and what was needed expense Ect
And was it a good idea investment. Cheers in anticipation. Brian
 
There have been a few, so it might have been mine, or someone else's, but this is what I did/have ....

I have a Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor. That has a relay that you can set to come on when the battery state of charge reaches a preset value (say 98%, so pretty full at that time). The relay will switch off when the batteries drop to say 94% - so you never take too much out.
Now if you have solar and your battery is at that charge level, chances are you are wasting some solar harvesting energy as the panels can make more than the batteries can take in.
What you can do is use that battery monitor control relay to control power to the water heater using a power relay.
If you have a 12V water heater element, then a simple relay is all that is needed.
If you have a 240V AC water element (say a truma UltraStore for example), then you would need a relay AND an inverter.

Was it worthwhile? Well, if you have a good amount of solar (say 200W) then I think you could get some benefit from this setup and save on gas usage by using "free" solar power.
How much does the "free" power cost?
You need a monitor with a relay feature. The BMV-712 is around £180 (but has uses far beyond just doing this).
If you have a suitable monitor and suitable solar, then the bits you need to get to add this water-heating are cheap. For DC heater, under £10. For AC heater and you get a cheap inverter (fine for this occasional use), maybe £80?

I plan to be getting a new (to me) Motorhome shortly all being well, and will be adding this feature to it without a doubt (and have already planned the wiring setup in readiness)
 
David. Well done in advance. When you start doing all this work keep us all informed on here what you are doing. Fitting. I am still waiting saving for b2 b mppt Brian maybe a second 150 watt solar etc.
 
As long as you are using spare solar power to heat the water, it makes sense. Store it as heat in the tank.
The problem with that is that you really want the tank to be full of hotness even when the sun hasn't been shining, so there may not be much spare heat storage capacity available when the sun comes out.

If you were using the excess solar to charge batteries and heat the water from them, it's not a good idea. Even with lithium batteries, each cycle uses a little of the battery's life. Quite possible that the cost in battery life would be higher than the cost of buying LPG.
 
I am shure i have seen Alde have brought out an instant hot water boiler with no storage tank.
 
That will be gas powered, though. You need a huge amount of power to run instant hot water: more than is sensible from a battery system.
 
Now the following diagram hopefully shows what the plan is for my future reconfiguration.
The products shown are not a requirement (so you can substitute the Multiplus for a basic inverter and a 240V 'Contactor' for example) but represent one way on what you are talking about could be achieved in a factory-built motorhome, using some of the existing installation (e.g. a Sargent Power unit) with minimal reconfiguration.
Caveat: In this case we are talking about some 240V rewiring, so great care and caution must be applied and any doubts, get someone suitable in to do/check the work!

Preamble.
The typical Sargent unit has 3 AC outlets, one for General use, one for (space) Heater, and one for Boiler, Fridge and Built-in Charger.
Being able to use General AC sockets when off-grid for stuff like Laptop charging or similar can be very handy.
A Space Heater will draw so much power on electric, it is not feasible (on a cost basis) to run that on batteries.
A typical Motorhome Boiler is only around 10L and if the electric installation is sized sufficiently (battery and solar), it is perfectly possible to run that on Batteries within reason. The same may be true of a 3-Way fridge (depends on fridge however).

The following diagram shows how a Victron Multiplus Inverter/Charger could be added to a typical British Motorhome setup.
1599047849101.png
The feed into the Sargent RCD will be changed from EHU direct to go instead through the Multiplus AC-1 outlet
The first MCB (light blue) is not adapted and so is fed from the RCD and its output will be active, either on mains or inverter
The second MCB (dark blue) is typically designated for a Heater, and the input of that will be changed to being fed by AC-2 from the Multiplus
The third MCB (Violet) is designated by Sargent for the Fridge, Boiler and Charger. Here the input will still be fed from the RDC, but via a 240V SSR Relay, controlled by an SOC (State of Charge) monitor. I show this controlled by the relay within the Victron BMV-712, but if you have a Victron GX unit (e.g. a CCGX, Venus GX, etc) for example, you could use the relay within those (shown by the dotted line).
The Relay would be setup so it only goes on when the battery is at a state of charge you decide. The best value will depend on your own setup, but probably somewhere over 90% might work best for most?
The Relay in the BMV-712 and GX's can be manually turned on as well so if you are driving for example, or if it is a nice day forecast, you could decide to enable it to save on gas even if the battery is below the SOC you set, knowing you will make it up later anyway from the B2B or solar.

Ref AC-1 and AC-2 mentioned ... The Larger Multipluses have two AC outlets - AC-1 is the outlet that will be driven by Mains when plugged in, or Inverter when off-grid; AC-2 is a specific Mains-only outlet, so if unplugged from EHU will be off. This is ideal for something like a space heater.
The benefit of using the AC-2 outlet rather than bypassing the Multiplus is that you can set a maximum current (for if you are on a campsite with limited current supply) and both AC-1 and AC-2 are monitored to make sure you don't exceed that and overload/trip the external campsite breaker.

There is a limitation to the setup above however - if for example you arrive at a site and plug in to EHU, but your batteries are below the required SOC, the supply to the Boiler and Fridge will remain off. You would need to remember to go into the BMV settings and manually turn the relay on. This I think will be a minor annoyance, but if you wanted to avoid even that manual interaction, you can do so by adding a auto-switching 240V relay that detects the presence of mains and switches to it automatically. I am in two minds whether to do that or not (the cost to add that feature would be around £20 and minimal extra wiring, so not a problem there, however you would lose out on accessing a potentially handy feature of the Multiplus called Power Assist which could be very useful on those limited EHU campsites)

Finally, this wiring also means the charger built into the Sargent could actually run off the batteries to then charge those same batteries! I would not use that charger anyway so it does not matter but if you wanted to it would be necessary to make some further adjustments.
 
David, did you know you can, in the existing software, set the multiplus AC2 output to only be live if on mains or if SOC is above a certain %age value?
 
David, did you know you can, in the existing software, set the multiplus AC2 output to only be live if on mains or if SOC is above a certain %age value?
No, I was not aware of that at all!
I will run up the software (VEConfig I presume?) and have a look :)

That feature would make rewiring easier. Question though - could you easily force it on (to use the Inverter) if you wanted? being able to do that I think is really needed.
Also, what SOC data does it use? the SOC from a BMV (somehow. via Venus setup?) or its own integral SOC info (which is not accurate on a setup with DC loads and non MP Chargers)

Edit some of above after reading some more of manual detail (bit about the RCDs)
However I do see the following:
  • AC-out-1 (see appendix A)The AC output cable can be connected directly to the terminal block "AC-out".From left to right: “PE” (earth), “N” (neutral) and “L” (phase).With its PowerAssist feature the Multi can add up to 3kVA (that is 3000 / 230 = 13A) to the output during periods of peak power requirement. Together with a maximum input current of 50A this means that the output can supply up to 50 + 13 = 63A. An earth leakage circuit breaker and a fuse or circuit breaker rated to support the expected load must be included in series with the output, and cable cross-section must be sized accordingly.The maximum rating of the fuse or circuit breaker is 63A.

  • AC-out-2 (see appendix A)A second output is available that disconnects its load in the event of battery operation. On these terminals, equipment is connected that may only operate if AC voltage is available on AC-in, e.g. an electric boiler or an air conditioner.The load on AC-out-2 is disconnected immediately when the MultiPlus switches to battery operation. After AC power becomes available on AC-in, the load on AC-out-2 will be reconnected with a delay of approximately 2 minutes. This to allow a genset to stabilise.AC-out-2 can support loads of up to 25A. An earth leakage circuit breaker and fuse rated at max. 32A must be connected in series with AC-out-2.
So no mention of controllable AC-2 output and couldn't see anything in VEConfig to show otherwise?
 
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No, I was not aware of that at all!
I will run up the software (VEConfig I presume?) and have a look :)

It wasn't particularly straightforward, but it's to do with the generator assistant. This is what I've set:

Start stop generator.jpg

EDIT: I may have changed the last one over, can't remember. Too many double negatives lol
 
Ah right.
No, I don't think that will do what you may think? So as you have set it up there, the ACOut 2 Relay will close when the SOC is under 95%. the expectation is that that goes to a remote start on a Generator that is connected to the AC-In and then you will get AC-Mains into the Multiplus, albeit from a Generator rather than the Grid. I don't see it resulting in AC-Out-2 staying alive without some kind of AC Mains coming in?

Have you actually connected AC-Out-2 on your Multiplus and using it? I would give this a go normally to test but it is awkward to get to the connections on my Multiplus install.
 
Ah right.
No, I don't think that will do what you may think?

It does work, I have it connected to the 24V charger for the EB

It's starting the gen (opening the relay) when lower than 95% = no mains output
It's stopping the gen (Closing relay) when above 97% = mains output on.

I don't see it resulting in AC-Out-2 staying alive without some kind of AC Mains coming in?

Don't forget it's just being used as a signal to start/stop a gen.
 
I've just checked the config and I did switch the last one around so that AC2 stays live when EHU is connected.
 
It does work, I have it connected to the 24V charger for the EB

It's starting the gen (opening the relay) when lower than 95% = no mains output
It's stopping the gen (Closing relay) when above 97% = mains output on.



Don't forget it's just being used as a signal to start/stop a gen.
so to confirm .... you have live power on AC-out-2 without any mains input (including no generator running)?
 
so to confirm .... you have live power on AC-out-2 without any mains input (including no generator running)?

Correct. There is no generator, it's just what the output would normally be used to control.

I've actually just been out and checked. 100% SOC, pulled the EHU and AC2 is still live. Wouldn't want to be accused of peddling false information lol
 
Correct. There is no generator, it's just what the output would normally be used to control.

I've actually just been out and checked. 100% SOC, pulled the EHU and AC2 is still live. Wouldn't want to be accused of peddling false information lol

That really did made me laugh out loud Steve!
Thanks for that one.

Colin :):):)
 
interesting. That directly contradicts the Multiplus Manual I would say.

I've given this further thought and come to the conclusion it is not an option I would think would suit my purposes in this scenario, but useful to know :)
 
I wish they would update the manual to reflect this! that community page was from 18 months ago!

As an aside and talking updates, the new compact (plastic housed) Multiplus 12/1200 has a new manual supplied with it that is newer than the on-line version. The recommended cable sizes have gone up from 35mm to 50mm and there is a big cable adapter supplied (didn't know this until I supplied one and was updated on the info by the buyer :( )
 

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