Lets talk about generators

[Molly 3]

Why not give 10 ---6 ago for a trial period .I personally could only see problem on extended meets in winter .people with only blown air heating ,and the odd. flat battery in Summer. How many people would refuse the loan of a jenny if needed. My van has a 25 amp charger in reality would put about 10 amps a two hour charge would run my heater for over 24 hours or am wrong .

 

[Admin]

I wonder how much output from a running generator is actually wasted (and the same goes for an idling engine)?

Let's say the average Generator is 1000W - if the intention of running the unit is to recharge the Leisure Batteries via the Camper/MHs battery charger, then that output would drive an ~80A Battery Charger. How Many people have a Battery Charger anywhere close to that?
So my point is - if someone is running a generator, why not get a multi-way adapter and let other people who require power all use it at the same time - I bet you could have 5 vans charging of one unit?

Now taking Phils observation (quoted below) which might mean the above may not be viable

Let's be realistic now .... plenty of folk here have 220Ah or so battery banks. How many of those have 55A Chargers? I have a 440Ah Bank and I have a 20A mains charger and it works perfectly and does the job I need it to. If my 440Ah battery bank is down to 50%, my Mains charger will get it back to 100% by the morning. (I confirmed that in reality as I used my LB Bank to run the house in a recent 24 Hour power cut). To invest in a charger like a >100A (in my case) unit would be horrendously expensive and pointless. Even a 55A charger would be very expensive.
Sorry, but I have to say I don't get - or agree at all with - the idea that the charger output in Amps should be 25-30% of the battery bank capacity in Ahs.
Given most folk who tend to camp at places without hookups would only ever use their mains charger at home where they can plug in overnight and there is no need to recharge their batteries in a couple of hours, it would be a pointless expense. And those who use campsites are there overnight, using mains power for the heavy draw items and their batteries chargers are ticking away. I can't see any need or rational for a charging capability more applicable to an Electric Traction system then a Leisure Battery requirement.
I would buy a generator before a 100A Battery Charger.

This thread is about generators, not mains hookups. If people are going to charge from hookup then they won't need a larger charger.

My point was that if you are going to use a generator daily it would be a good idea to fit a better charger so that your batteries charge three times faster and your generator is running for a third of the time. In your example, your generator would have to be running for twelve hours to recharge 220Ah into your AGM batteries. With a 60A charger, it would be running for four hours. This would save you about £3 per charge in fuel (based on load/fuel usage data for an EU20i). It would also increase the life of the generator.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

MAybe have a meet genny to help those who have a urgent need, otherwise no gennys allowed except personal ones for medical use,such as CPAP etc. although 12v is possible with some kit, they will run the LBs down.

 

[Minisorella]

I agree with those who said 10am to 6pm is too long. The thought of 8 solid hours of my tinnitus buzzing is making me miserable just thinking about it. I don't know how long it takes a genny to top up batteries but surely not 8 hours if people were only using essential stuff? As I said earlier, I've voted yes but would be incredibly disappointed if people took advantage.

I've been reading the thread on inverters and I'm blown away by the vast array of 240V equipment people choose to use in their vans. If I were treated to 5 days x 8 hours of multiple generator noise and then found out it was to indulge luxury stuff rather than essentials, I'd be pretty miffed to be honest. For many, it would be a huge compromise to change our ethos and accept the use of generators at meets. Surely the compromise needs to be both ways. In 7 years of meets, the countless people I've camped with seem to have managed just fine for 5 days without a generator in sight.

Another thought is that each meet should be considered separately. Some of our meets are on vast fields but others are in much smaller spaces. Also, are we just talking about winter meets? The cold and dark is definitely what I had in mind when I voted.

Perhaps whatever's decided should be for a trial period only, to see how it goes.

 

[wildebus]

This thread is about generators, not mains hookups. If people are going to charge from hookup then they won't need a larger charger.

My point was that if you are going to use a generator daily it would be a good idea to fit a better charger so that your batteries charge three times faster and your generator is running for a third of the time. In your example, your generator would have to be running for twelve hours to recharge 220Ah into your AGM batteries. With a 60A charger, it would be running for four hours. This would save you about £3 per charge in fuel (based on load/fuel usage data for an EU20i). It would also increase the life of the generator.

That is very true, but I was questioning the idea that the 25-30% is a recognised and agreed figure of charger-to-battery. Was this for people who use generators specifically, or people with Leisure Batteries in general? How many people in this thread (or in the wider camping world) use generators even remotely close to daily which would warrant an charger upgrade as you describe above. I was concerned that someone may have seen this "accepted value for modern lesiure battery" charger ratio (which didn't have a 'for generators' caveat) and go out and actually buy a massively oversized charger.

 

[Admin]

I agree with those who said 10am to 6pm is too long. The thought of 8 solid hours of my tinnitus buzzing is making me miserable just thinking about it. I don't know how long it takes a genny to top up batteries but surely not 8 hours if people were only using essential stuff? As I said earlier, I've voted yes but would be incredibly disappointed if people took advantage.

I've been reading the thread on inverters and I'm blown away by the vast array of 240V equipment people choose to use in their vans. If I were treated to 5 days x 8 hours of multiple generator noise and then found out it was to indulge luxury stuff rather than essentials, I'd be pretty miffed to be honest. For many, it would be a huge compromise to change our ethos and accept the use of generators at meets. Surely the compromise needs to be both ways. In 7 years of meets, the countless people I've camped with seem to have managed just fine for 5 days without a generator in sight.

Another thought is that each meet should be considered separately. Some of our meets are on vast fields but others are in much smaller spaces. Also, are we just talking about winter meets? The cold and dark is definitely what I had in mind when I voted.

Perhaps whatever's decided should be for a trial period only, to see how it goes.

I am only gauging opinion in this thread. For now, our no generator position stands. I know that this won't suit all our members, but we do not have many members who use generators and I cannot please everyone. Generators used for medical reasons may be allowed on a case by case basis.

I also fully understand that we have members that have motorhomes that are not equipped for off-grid camping in the winter. Unfortunately, these members will have to look for rallies elsewhere that have the facilities that they require.

 

[wildebus]

Why not give 10 ---6 ago for a trial period .I personally could only see problem on extended meets in winter .people with only blown air heating ,and the odd. flat battery in Summer. How many people would refuse the loan of a jenny if needed. My van has a 25 amp charger in reality would put about 10 amps a two hour charge would run my heater for over 24 hours or am wrong .

I'm curious about something that has been mentioned in a few replies.... About heating.

What is meant by "blown air heating"? Heating which requires a fan to distribute the heat I guess? Does "normal" motorhome heating not use any electrics to push heat around?

FWIW, I checked the amount of power used by my diesel (actually kerosene) heater that uses a fan to circulate the heat and it is 1Ah/hr while running, so not a great deal. Maybe other blown air heaters use more?

PS. Why would your 25A charger only put in 10A? My 20A charger puts in 20A when bulk charging.

 

[Admin]

That is very true, but I was questioning the idea that the 25-30% is a recognised and agreed figure of charger-to-battery. Was this for people who use generators specifically, or people with Leisure Batteries in general? How many people in this thread (or in the wider camping world) use generators even remotely close to daily which would warrant an charger upgrade as you describe above. I was concerned that someone may have seen this "accepted value for modern lesiure battery" charger ratio (which didn't have a 'for generators' caveat) and go out and actually buy a massively oversized charger.

It is in the first post of a thread titled "Let's talk about generators" and in a section of the post listing ways of lowering the impact of your generator on other people.

I don't think that "massively oversized charger" is a fair description. Most motorhomes are fitted with a 20A charger that will be approx 20% of their battery capacity. For time efficient off-grid charging of motorhomes and narrow boats 25% - 30%, if you want me to hunt through the Internet and find authoritative references for you then I will.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I am only gauging opinion in this thread. For now, our no generator position stands. I know that this won't suit all our members, but we do not have many members who use generators and I cannot please everyone. Generators used for medical reasons may be allowed on a case by case basis.

I also fully understand that we have members that have motorhomes that are not equipped for off-grid camping in the winter. Unfortunately, these members will have to look for rallies elsewhere that have the facilities that they require.

True Phil, but a genny is far more expensive than a extra LB and a solar rig, also storage and weight issues. if it can be done DIY, or maybe as service at a meet, could even be set up as

 

[Minisorella]

I'm curious about something that has been mentioned in a few replies.... About heating.

What is meant by "blown air heating"? Heating which requires a fan to distribute the heat I guess? Does "normal" motorhome heating not use any electrics to push heat around?

FWIW, I checked the amount of power used by my diesel (actually kerosene) heater that uses a fan to circulate the heat and it is 1Ah/hr while running, so not a great deal. Maybe other blown air heaters use more?

PS. Why would your 25A charger only put in 10A? My 20A charger puts in 20A when bulk charging.

Mine doesn't - it's the standard Truma gas fire but without an electric option or blown air. I don't think mine's the norm but I do think I'm really lucky to have heating without any 12V demand.

 

[maingate]

I think it is dangerous to suggest a 25 - 30% charging rate is fine. It certainly is not for many older motorhomes. The accepted rate has always been 10% to the best of my knowledge. There are many makes of charger that regularly burn out simply because a second leisure battery was fitted. It needs to be remembered that a charger often charges the van battery as well. That could be a total of 300 amp/hours. The Reich ebox system on my van burnt out when the former owner fitted a second leisure battery and it cost him nearly £800 to fit an uprated Reich charger to cope with a second leisure battery.

 

[2cv]

I'm curious about something that has been mentioned in a few replies.... About heating.

What is meant by "blown air heating"? Heating which requires a fan to distribute the heat I guess? Does "normal" motorhome heating not use any electrics to push heat around?

FWIW, I checked the amount of power used by my diesel (actually kerosene) heater that uses a fan to circulate the heat and it is 1Ah/hr while running, so not a great deal. Maybe other blown air heaters use more?

PS. Why would your 25A charger only put in 10A? My 20A charger puts in 20A when bulk charging.

My combi heater also uses about 1Amp/hr when running. Even in very cold weather it only runs about a quarter of the time when using gas, so running day and night is only 24/4 or 6 ah per day. This means to discharge my little 110ah battery to 50% I could go nearly a week even with no solar.

 

[2cv]

We’ve spent the odd night or two in a couple of different vans .
You have obviously got magic batteries
Real world that we live in has proven very different and we don’t have inverters we didn’t use tv and have tried lots of different set ups .
We have charged many people up at meets with our generator which is far quieter and quicker than running a diesel van engine that often causes the dpf light to come on if left idling on modern vans.

I don’t doubt your experiences, but undoubtedly the simple maths agree with mine.

 

[Brakers]

Hi Everybody
I was at the last years New Year Bash I’d previously come from Ludlow meet on EHU, over the course of the WC meet I had to run the generator once to keep the batteries at a reasonable level. I have a battery bank of 4 135 amp batteries and 2 x 150 watt solar panels controlled by a Victron mttp controller.
The vehicle I have is an 8.6 metre Autotrail
The weather was very overcast and cold so the solar was producing very little if any.
My heater in the MH running most of the meet, I do like my tv but that’s my decision and I charge the normal things like iPads phones etc.
If you ask anyone who uses a generator they would rather not use one, I’m sure no one uses one just to annoy you.
I was not the only one using a generator there was at least three others.
If I could get away in bad conditions without a generator then I would.
I’m also thinking of changing over to the new lithium phosphate batteries next year which hopefully will negate the need for a generator, but the cost is a big factor in that decision.
Best Wishes Tony

 

[2cv]

Been on a Wildcamping spot today with a neighbouring van running a generator and it was far quieter than any Diesel engine running, in fact I didn’t even hear it until someone told me it was running.
Many on here who have said they have been at meets without hearing generators will actually find that many times generators have been running.

I can only agree with you that whilst some find generator noise very annoying others barely notice them. C’est la vie.

 

[2cv]

Hi Everybody
I was at the last years New Year Bash I’d previously come from Ludlow meet on EHU, over the course of the WC meet I had to run the generator once to keep the batteries at a reasonable level. I have a battery bank of 4 135 amp batteries and 2 x 150 watt solar panels controlled by a Victron mttp controller.
The vehicle I have is an 8.6 metre Autotrail
The weather was very overcast and cold so the solar was producing very little if any.
My heater in the MH running most of the meet, I do like my tv but that’s my decision and I charge the normal things like iPads phones etc.
If you ask anyone who uses a generator they would rather not use one, I’m sure no one uses one just to annoy you.
I was not the only one using a generator there was at least three others.
If I could get away in bad conditions without a generator then I would.
I’m also thinking of changing over to the new lithium phosphate batteries next year which hopefully will negate the need for a generator, but the cost is a big factor in that decision.
Best Wishes Tony

Your situation is just the sort of reason that maybe a running time of 2 hours or so could be a good idea. This would mean that the noise is not spread out throughout the day whilst enabling those who need a top up to achieve it.
I don’t think that anyone would want a member to be unable to attend a meet because of electrical needs, but likewise some may not attend because of incessant noise. Such a compromise may work.

 

[Minisorella]

Hi Everybody
I was at the last years New Year Bash I’d previously come from Ludlow meet on EHU, over the course of the WC meet I had to run the generator once to keep the batteries at a reasonable level. I have a battery bank of 4 135 amp batteries and 2 x 150 watt solar panels controlled by a Victron mttp controller.
The vehicle I have is an 8.6 metre Autotrail
The weather was very overcast and cold so the solar was producing very little if any.
My heater in the MH running most of the meet, I do like my tv but that’s my decision and I charge the normal things like iPads phones etc.
If you ask anyone who uses a generator they would rather not use one, I’m sure no one uses one just to annoy you.
I was not the only one using a generator there was at least three others.
If I could get away in bad conditions without a generator then I would.
I’m also thinking of changing over to the new lithium phosphate batteries next year which hopefully will negate the need for a generator, but the cost is a big factor in that decision.
Best Wishes Tony

Well I feel quite humbled because I was at that meet too (if you mean the Henley-in-Arden one) and didn't notice any generator noise at all

 

[2cv]

I think all this has proved to a good few people is just how petty minded and intolerant many motorhome owners actually are .
The fact that generators have been used at all the winter meets we have attended over the years without any problems just shows that most people were unaware it was even happening.

It could of course just be that those who were bothered said nothing.

 

[Minisorella]

Well that is contary to when I asked if I would be welcome if bringing my geny to a meet. So we did not come! There is no way we could maintain bsttery power for heating, shower etc for 3 or 4 winter days without geny and no way would I supliment using van engine. Mrs G was v dissapointed that we would not be welcome. Am I bothered ? Not at all,

Better still, if you have a geny, dont bother going. Who the hell wants to go where not welcome

I'm sure no-one did, or ever would say that you and Mrs G weren't welcome at a meet. If there was a rule in place not allowing generators, then that's a totally different issue and not a personal thing at all.

 

[Minisorella]

I did ask and from memory I think it was Bugsworth (maybe) and I am sure the posts could be found someehere on Wild

Bugsworth is a meet in a pub car park beside a public canal basin walk, so I wouldn't be surprised if generators were forbidden there, irrespective of WC rules.

*****, the point I was making is that no-one would ever have said you and Mrs G weren't welcome... it was up to you if you didn't feel you could manage the meet without a generator. In all fairness, this sort of thing is likely the reason why Phil is trying to sound out member opinion on the matter.

Edit to say... just spotted your subsequent post