3 Leisure Battery options

[nabsim]

The simple way we look at battery power is this. If we decide to go away with the grandkids for a week, the electricity e use goes up and we end up using over 100 amps per day. If the sun shines the batteries get some power back, but if its dull we still have sufficient power to draw on and when we come back home, our 5 batteries may be at half power, but we would have run out if we only had 2 on board. If your payload allows it, then go for extra batts.

That doesn't quite make sense, if you are using 100 amps per day your battery bank is effectively used in two and a half days (50% being safest you drop to) unless you are running Lifepo4. Do you have solar panels topping up while you are away

 

[Markd]

Cbdriver says some solar top up.

 

[cbdriver]

That doesn't quite make sense, if you are using 100 amps per day your battery bank is effectively used in two and a half days (50% being safest you drop to) unless you are running Lifepo4. Do you have solar panels topping up while you are away

Whoever told you that a safe drop for a battery is 50% is talking through their backside. Batteries recover very easily if they go to flat and anyone that wants to debate this issue needs to be educated. have you never had a flat battery on your car because you left the interior light on then had a jump start it and let it charge up again, or did you run to Halfords and buy a new battery. Honestly some of the snowflake crap out there is just insane. Yes a battery will last longer if its looked after but a battery that never goes below 50% will develop a memory volt issue and they go bad more often than batteries that are discharged to empty and then get charged back up. Anyway, a battery will never discharge to zero volts as it will cut out when it gets to about 20%. My post was a general idea,, not a statement of fact, but it was as near to correct as we need on here.

 

[Markd]

I'm afraid that I don't think that this is true - taking a battery to completely flat could easily reduce the number 50% cycles it is capable of by a third.
Given that a lot of middling batteries have well under 100 cycles available when new it's important to not go below 50% if you can.
Starter batteries will survive the occasional complete drain because they very really go below 90% SOC (10% drain) being only called on to start the engine and then be fully charged again within a few minutes.
Hab batteries have a much tougher live and shouldn't be abused if you are looking for long life.
I'd welcome seeing any techical reference to lead acid batteries developing a "memory" if only lightly discharged.

 

[trevskoda]

Yes and even the stop start varta silver power frame batteries are best never to be taken down below 70% or 30% discharge,and all standard l acid batts will have a shorter life if so ,many car batts that have been discharges to low go down hill very fast and would never work in winter for starting.

 

[cbdriver]

Journal of Rehabilitation Research & Development

books.google.co.uk

 

[nabsim]

Whoever told you that a safe drop for a battery is 50% is talking through their backside. Batteries recover very easily if they go to flat and anyone that wants to debate this issue needs to be educated. have you never had a flat battery on your car because you left the interior light on then had a jump start it and let it charge up again, or did you run to Halfords and buy a new battery. Honestly some of the snowflake crap out there is just insane. Yes a battery will last longer if its looked after but a battery that never goes below 50% will develop a memory volt issue and they go bad more often than batteries that are discharged to empty and then get charged back up. Anyway, a battery will never discharge to zero volts as it will cut out when it gets to about 20%. My post was a general idea,, not a statement of fact, but it was as near to correct as we need on here.

Well you just lost any credibility you had with me I am afraid, you dont seem to understand how batteries work and the difference between using one to start an engine or for leisure purposes. I tend to look and listen to what people say then try things myself.

I killed 3 x 90ah Bosch PowerFrame battery's in around 12 months. When I say killed one of them is working perfectly well as a starter battery on my 2.7 turbo Sprinter van but as leisure battery they would barely last me overnight. I gave them a hard life with a constant daily use of 65ah and even though I have 300w of solar that doesn't work in winter. I decided to get the generator too late to save the batteries and had to run it every day in late autumn to keep power

Would the same thing happen to everyone, No. Man folks dont use the power I do so wouldn't take the capacity so low. The vast majority of people in vans go from home to a camp site with ehu and any old battery would last them for ever as it never used but will be useless if they ever go off grid. I have friends who go to a scrap yard and buy old lorry batteries and they use them until they are completely useless then get another. They run a string of fairy light and charge a phone. Horses for courses and everyones needs are different

I know you can't stay a week off grid with 550ah of battery in winter in the UK using 100 amps a day though unless its a very exceptional year weather wise.

 

[Okta]

Journal of Rehabilitation Research & Development

books.google.co.uk

That article says there is a memory effect in nickel zinc and nickel cadmium batteries and specifically states “whereas lead acid shows little memory.” Basically memory effect is not relevant to this discussion, the article is about wheelchair batteries and I can’t be bothered to read the rest of it. The Battery University goes further and says there is no memory effect in lead acid batteries. It also has plenty to say about safe discharge levels.

The earlier analogy with water tanks talks about internal resistance but voltage (which would equate to water pressure) is more important. The flow of current between the batteries will depend mostly on voltage not internal resistance.

 

[cbdriver]

Well you just lost any credibility you had with me I am afraid, you dont seem to understand how batteries work and the difference between using one to start an engine or for leisure purposes. I tend to look and listen to what people say then try things myself.

I killed 3 x 90ah Bosch PowerFrame battery's in around 12 months. When I say killed one of them is working perfectly well as a starter battery on my 2.7 turbo Sprinter van but as leisure battery they would barely last me overnight. I gave them a hard life with a constant daily use of 65ah and even though I have 300w of solar that doesn't work in winter. I decided to get the generator too late to save the batteries and had to run it every day in late autumn to keep power

Would the same thing happen to everyone, No. Man folks dont use the power I do so wouldn't take the capacity so low. The vast majority of people in vans go from home to a camp site with ehu and any old battery would last them for ever as it never used but will be useless if they ever go off grid. I have friends who go to a scrap yard and buy old lorry batteries and they use them until they are completely useless then get another. They run a string of fairy light and charge a phone. Horses for courses and everyones needs are different

I know you can't stay a week off grid with 550ah of battery in winter in the UK using 100 amps a day though unless its a very exceptional year weather wise.

Im sorry to hear you have lost my faith, but don't worry, I wont fret. I am a fully qualified auto electrician of old as I am retired now and although a battery is an emotive subject, so are all the experts that come up with data that contradict each other from time to time. The simple fact regarding batteries is simple. Deep cycle car batteries have thicker plates to facilitate loads of many amps, leisure batteries have thinner plates designed for lighter loads but they both work exactly the same. Whilst a leisure battery to start a truck is a bad idea, if long life is the narrative, then the opposite is true of a deep cycle in a habitation environment.
You seem to have taken my 100ah of usage as something which is the norm and every day, when in reality it was a generalisation and to say there are no amps available in the winter when you are running a 300 watt solar system leads me to believe you have them wired up wrong. Ive been to the outer Hebrides in lashing rain and still manage to get a few amps, so with a good solar system and 10hours of daylight we are always going to get a bit of rest bite for the batteries and in deep winter, one never uses the same amount of juice as we do in the height of summer.
I think the difference of opinions we have here is that you are not comparing apples for apples. The op posted and asked a q which intimated he was little more than a day camper with the odd extended time away and his answers were designed to address his concerns. If he had have come on asking how to live off-grid for weeks at a time, my opinion would have been different, as in your case, so lets both agree to disagree and move on and enjoy our camping, me with my set up and you with yours. I am quite happy that my system works very well and I am sure yours work for you so it looks like we are both happy and no need to fall out.

 

[cbdriver]

That article says there is a memory effect in nickel zinc and nickel cadmium batteries and specifically states “whereas lead acid shows little memory.” Basically memory effect is not relevant to this discussion, the article is about wheelchair batteries and I can’t be bothered to read the rest of it. The Battery University goes further and says there is no memory effect in lead acid batteries. It also has plenty to say about safe discharge levels.

The earlier analogy with water tanks talks about internal resistance but voltage (which would equate to water pressure) is more important. The flow of current between the batteries will depend mostly on voltage not internal resistance.

I am sure you have heard of OHMs law where volts, amps and resistance are all relative. amps is an active current that relies on volts and resitence to work just as volts are relative to resistance and amps, so to say internal resistance as a physical attribute has no relevance to volts tells me that we are both working on different planets, so lets agree to disagree. Ask any qualified electrician what causes a volt drop and his answer may surprise you.

 

[Okta]

I am sure you have heard of OHMs law where volts, amps and resistance are all relative. amps is an active current that relies on volts and resitence to work just as volts are relative to resistance and amps, so to say internal resistance as a physical attribute has no relevance to volts tells me that we are both working on different planets, so lets agree to disagree. Ask any qualified electrician what causes a volt drop and his answer may surprise you.

I didn’t discount internal resistance, I used the word mostly. I am aware of Ohms law. I still think you are wrong on many counts and side with @nabsim on this. I think you are continuing to give erroneous advice about batteries and plate thickness but happy to agree to disagree with you.

 

[cbdriver]

I didn’t discount internal resistance, I used the word mostly. I am aware of Ohms law. I still think you are wrong on many counts and side with @nabsim on this. I think you are continuing to give erroneous advice about batteries and plate thickness but happy to agree to disagree with you.

Please state what erroneous advice I am giving. No good slating my views if you are not doing so from a position of strength. My views have been looked at by a friend of mine who runs a large battery shop and I won't tell you what he has said, just that my advice is based on facts and some others are google doctors with no real experience. The last thing I am going to do is argue the toss with people that admit to frying batteries, something only inexperience people do. You discount the thickness and thinness of plates as if this fact isn't a point worth arguing, but in reality, its the only thing that differentiates the hab and cab batteries. I don't want to argue, but poking me to try and make my posts look stupid, has a word for it, its called baiting and something the mods on this site should not allow. Opinions are like haemorrhoids, every a..hole has one and I include myself in that analysis. This is a forum, not a university debate group and if we can help each other whilst playing by the rules, then great. If we don't agree and cant offer opposing facts, then we shouldn't post anything that creates discord.

 

[Okta]

Please state what erroneous advice I am giving. No good slating my views if you are not doing so from a position of strength. My views have been looked at by a friend of mine who runs a large battery shop and I won't tell you what he has said, just that my advice is based on facts and some others are google doctors with no real experience. The last thing I am going to do is argue the toss with people that admit to frying batteries, something only inexperience people do. You discount the thickness and thinness of plates as if this fact isn't a point worth arguing, but in reality, its the only thing that differentiates the hab and cab batteries. I don't want to argue, but poking me to try and make my posts look stupid, has a word for it, its called baiting and something the mods on this site should not allow. Opinions are like haemorrhoids, every a..hole has one and I include myself in that analysis. This is a forum, not a university debate group and if we can help each other whilst playing by the rules, then great. If we don't agree and cant offer opposing facts, then we shouldn't post anything that creates discord.

It is an opinion, I am allowed to express an opinion. Since neither of us want to argue I will leave it at that.

 

[Markd]

Journal of Rehabilitation Research & Development

books.google.co.uk

Not the most recent piece of research!
Couldn't see any details on memory effect on lightly used lead-acid batteries but it did confirm the debilitating effect on cycle life of deep discharge.

 

[Okta]

Not the most recent piece of research!
Couldn't see any details on memory effect on lightly used lead-acid batteries but it did confirm the debilitating effect on cycle life of deep discharge.

This article by RoadPro has some helpful explanations. Obviously their recommended products tend to reflect the stock they carry but they are a well regarded firm with a lot of relevant experience.

The RoadPro Guide to Lead-acid Leisure Batteries

The RoadPro Guide to Lead-acid Leisure Batteries

www.roadpro.co.uk

 

[Markd]

Deep cycle car batteries have thicker plates to facilitate loads of many amps, leisure batteries have thinner plates designed for lighter loads but they both work exactly the same

This statement is completely wrong in detail I'm afraid.
1. Deep cycle car batteries are an oxymoron - car batteries are not designed for deep discharge.
2. Car batteries have more thinner plates to facilitate high current flow - allowing heat to dissipate quickly.
3. Leisure batteries have thicker plates because they don't need to worry about heat distortion from high currents.

I have to accept that the do both work in the same way though as they are both lead acid batteries.

 

[cbdriver]

This statement is completely wrong in detail I'm afraid.
1. Deep cycle car batteries are an oxymoron - car batteries are not designed for deep discharge.
2. Car batteries have more thinner plates to facilitate high current flow - allowing heat to dissipate quickly.
3. Leisure batteries have thicker plates because they don't need to worry about heat distortion from high currents.

I have to accept that the do both work in the same way though as they are both lead acid batteries.

My bad, in my haste I got my wires crossed, sorry you are absolutely right. I was trying to emphasise a battery is a battery and no matter whether or not its a deep cycle or a leisure or even a wheelchair or fork lift truck battery, they all work the same way. We are all drifting away from the simple question asked and now its gone over the wall into the Google expert territory which we all know leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[roadroamer]

Having read this post with great details in it I love reading about how people manage when off grid thanks to Geeky Phil this is my setup and works for me. I have 3 x 100w lithium's plus 220w of solar and a Victron B2B and never runout of power I'm a happy bunny