Are my batteries on last legs?

Hymer Snobs

Full Member

Messages
114
I bought our 2008 vintage van in 2017 and the batteries may or may not have been new then. Just spent 5 nights off grid and the solar struggled to get a full charge back in as the weather was so bad. Last night I checked the stus at 3.00am (yes, 3.00am!) and although I still had 107 Amp/hours of the maximum 128Ah the output was only 12 volt on leisure batteries and 12.5 on vehicle battery. This morning at 8.00am the situation was the same and a small charge was going in and now at nearly 12.00am I have a full charge and 13.1 and 13.5v respectively.

Is this normal that voltage should drop as battery discharges albeit still with a good capacity?

Be gentle as I am an electrical numpty, I know the age indicates the batteries need renewing but was hoping to wait until the autumn and research lithium then

Thanks
 
So #1, at the very best, your batteries at 6 years old. Let's keep that at the back of our minds.

You say that at 3Am, you still had 107Ah of the maximum 128Ah? Well, you won't have the maximum 128Ah in the battery after 6 or more years of use, keep that also in mind.
a lead acid battery sitting at 12.0V and not doing much is just under half full. Doing the maths, you have taken 21Ah out the battery. (128Ah "Max" MINUS the 107Ah you are reading from something). Taking out that 21Ah has dropped your battery charge more than half, so your tru capacity is more like 40Ah, not 128Ah.
You have quoted the 128Ah capacity and said "...albeit still with a good capacity". What makes you believe the capacity is still that good? anything specific? Where is this "128Ah" from other than a label on a battery or a setting entered in the past on a monitor?

Conclusion? time to get new ones :)

Now the charging ... Easy to think they are still good as look how well they charge!! Well ... a battery with just 40Ah capacity WILL charge very quickly. but you are not charging to the full original capacity.
I had a totally knackered starter battery on my VW LT. Turn the key and it would drop to 10V and die. But man, did it "recharge" fast :D
 
I'll say it before anyone else does.
Buy lithium. Don't mess about, like I did.
If the 128ah lead worked for you, then a 100ah lithium battery would suffice.
The boss once suggested, I should sell a kidney and buy lithium. I'd say, keep your kidneys, and spend the kids inheritance, and buy 2 quality 100ah lithium batteries.
Several people on here have gone for Fogstar
 
I'll say it before anyone else does.
Buy lithium. Don't mess about, like I did.
If the 128ah lead worked for you, then a 100ah lithium battery would suffice.
The boss once suggested, I should sell a kidney and buy lithium. I'd say, keep your kidneys, and spend the kids inheritance, and buy 2 quality 100ah lithium batteries.
Several people on here have gone for Fogstar
not always that simple.
will a 2008 van have the right tools to take care of a Lithium Battery? right charging systems?; a way to monitor the capacity?
The only time a Lithium "drop in replacement" is really a drop in is when you already happen to have everything in place for Lithium already (very unlikely on a 2008 van).
 
Totally agree with wildebus I have a 94 hymer and bought lifepo4 I had to isolate relay 5 in the ebl from the alternator virtually turning the elektroblock into a fuse board also fitted victron b2b 12 12 18 and bought a victron mains charger so definitely not a straight drop in and quite a few quid more than I expected
That said its the best thing I've done
 
I always say if you suspect your batterys are shot , you are proberbly right , a good alternative to lithiam is lead carbon, down side is they are heavy , check out the spec on alpha batterys , a 100 amp lead carbon may out perform your 128 amp leisure battery , do a bit of research befor making your mind up ,
 
Thanks for the replies, much appreciated and I can't fault your reasoning and much of what you say I totally agree with, when I don't agree it's because I have no understanding of the subject and it goes over my head. However, my original 2 main questions remain is dropping to 12v output as capacity drops normal or is it an indication of imminent failure? Over the longer time I was hoping to get advice on a company or individual who could carry out the conversion, as I am really not confident about vitron B2b etc, in or around October; but do I need to speed up my investigation? FYI I got my figures from the on board info screen as per photos...is that even reliable? Many Thanks for the prompt advice so far and sorry to expand my questions, Cheers

IMG_20230725_174842757.jpgIMG_20230725_174816641.jpgIMG_20230725_174806167.jpg
 
Thanks for the replies, much appreciated and I can't fault your reasoning and much of what you say I totally agree with, when I don't agree it's because I have no understanding of the subject and it goes over my head.

However, my original 2 main questions remain is dropping to 12v output as capacity drops normal or is it an indication of imminent failure?
I don't understand your question. Or rather why you are asking this question.
As the charge in a battery gets used, the voltage lowers. then when the battery is recharged, the battery increases again. You have had this motorhome for 6 years you said? You must have seen this behaviour before?

when you say "capacity" you mean MAXIMUM POSSIBLE CAPACITY, then no, as you lose possible capacity, the voltage does not stop rising to the same top voltage. the fact you may still have a battery that is at rest 12.7V now, and 6 years ago it was also at 12.7V at rest does not mean in the slightest the battery still has the same capacity. That is not how batteries work unless they actually fail by losing cells - and that situation is much more obvious.
If you lose say 2/3rd capacity (which is what it looks like with your battery), it still charges up to 14.4V or whatever it did; it still discharges down to 12V or lower like it always did. But it all happens a lot quicker. The voltage drops faster than before as you are essentially taking out 3x the amount of energy it contained originally. It charges faster not becuase it is better, but there is only a 1/3rd of the capacity to accept the charge.
It is the same as if you took that battery out and put a brand new 40Ah battery in its place.



Over the longer time I was hoping to get advice on a company or individual who could carry out the conversion, as I am really not confident about vitron B2b etc, in or around October; but do I need to speed up my investigation? FYI I got my figures from the on board info screen as per photos...is that even reliable?
Your display shows 125Ah. It doesn't mean it is a 125Ah battery any more. It is just a number that someone entered. Maybe when the battery were first installed 6,7,10 or even 15 years ago it had 125Ah, but it has had lots of use and has lost some capacity.
Exactly how much is unknown, but that 125Ah is no longer accurate. It doesn't mean it is unreliable, it is just out of date as the battery has not been recalibrated/restested for capacity since it was fitted (very few people ever do that and update the capacity information, and so that display will be inaccurate on every motorhome it is fitted to after a time, as will every similar device).

To know how much capacity your battery has, you can charge it until it takes no more current, then put a constant load on it (maybe a few lights left on, but keep it as constant as possible). Ideally for your battery, make the load 6A.
Then after 10 Hours, turn off the load. Your battery should read just over 12V (I like to think of 12.05V) representing the charge dropping to 50%. This test would confirm the capacity is as quoted.
From your initial post, it is unlikely you will get to 10 hours before the battery dies. What you can do is do the constant load bit, but stop it when the battery goes below 12V. Then cut the load and see if the battery recovers to just over 12V. if it recovers to 12.1V or more, put the load on for a bit longer and repeat (voltages sag under load so you have to remove the load and allow it to recover to get the resting voltage).
For this second test, your "remaining Ah" x 2 taken off the 125Ah number will be your true battery capacity, and the usual battery capacity will be the just a little more than the difference between "remaining Ah" and 125Ah. You don't need to worry about not going below 12V - your battery is well past that consideration. You have maybe 25-30Ah (350Wh max?) at best before the system will shut down due to low voltage.

Many Thanks for the prompt advice so far and sorry to expand my questions, Cheers
Do you need to speed up your investigations? I am quite shocked you managed to get 5 nights off-grid. You must be fairly minimalist power users? One option is to buy the cheapest 100Ah battery you can find as a stop-gap measure, knowing that by October it will be knackered and you throw it away, but it will let you carry on camping. That keeps your timetable but you have 'wasted' around £70 (that is what I would do I think if that October was a fixed date). You could accelerate whatever changeover you are thinking of, but rushing that could cost you more than the throwaway battery quite likely.


My numbers of course could be way out, but that is what it all looks like from your initial values you quoted. The battery capacity test under a constant load is the only way you will know what the state of your battery is.
 
I don't understand your question. Or rather why you are asking this question.
As the charge in a battery gets used, the voltage lowers. then when the battery is recharged, the battery increases again. You have had this motorhome for 6 years you said? You must have seen this behaviour before?

when you say "capacity" you mean MAXIMUM POSSIBLE CAPACITY, then no, as you lose possible capacity, the voltage does not stop rising to the same top voltage. the fact you may still have a battery that is at rest 12.7V now, and 6 years ago it was also at 12.7V at rest does not mean in the slightest the battery still has the same capacity. That is not how batteries work unless they actually fail by losing cells - and that situation is much more obvious.
If you lose say 2/3rd capacity (which is what it looks like with your battery), it still charges up to 14.4V or whatever it did; it still discharges down to 12V or lower like it always did. But it all happens a lot quicker. The voltage drops faster than before as you are essentially taking out 3x the amount of energy it contained originally. It charges faster not becuase it is better, but there is only a 1/3rd of the capacity to accept the charge.
It is the same as if you took that battery out and put a brand new 40Ah battery in its place.




Your display shows 125Ah. It doesn't mean it is a 125Ah battery any more. It is just a number that someone entered. Maybe when the battery were first installed 6,7,10 or even 15 years ago it had 125Ah, but it has had lots of use and has lost some capacity.
Exactly how much is unknown, but that 125Ah is no longer accurate. It doesn't mean it is unreliable, it is just out of date as the battery has not been recalibrated/restested for capacity since it was fitted (very few people ever do that and update the capacity information, and so that display will be inaccurate on every motorhome it is fitted to after a time, as will every similar device).

To know how much capacity your battery has, you can charge it until it takes no more current, then put a constant load on it (maybe a few lights left on, but keep it as constant as possible). Ideally for your battery, make the load 6A.
Then after 10 Hours, turn off the load. Your battery should read just over 12V (I like to think of 12.05V) representing the charge dropping to 50%. This test would confirm the capacity is as quoted.
From your initial post, it is unlikely you will get to 10 hours before the battery dies. What you can do is do the constant load bit, but stop it when the battery goes below 12V. Then cut the load and see if the battery recovers to just over 12V. if it recovers to 12.1V or more, put the load on for a bit longer and repeat (voltages sag under load so you have to remove the load and allow it to recover to get the resting voltage).
For this second test, your "remaining Ah" x 2 taken off the 125Ah number will be your true battery capacity, and the usual battery capacity will be the just a little more than the difference between "remaining Ah" and 125Ah. You don't need to worry about not going below 12V - your battery is well past that consideration. You have maybe 25-30Ah (350Wh max?) at best before the system will shut down due to low voltage.


Do you need to speed up your investigations? I am quite shocked you managed to get 5 nights off-grid. You must be fairly minimalist power users? One option is to buy the cheapest 100Ah battery you can find as a stop-gap measure, knowing that by October it will be knackered and you throw it away, but it will let you carry on camping. That keeps your timetable but you have 'wasted' around £70 (that is what I would do I think if that October was a fixed date). You could accelerate whatever changeover you are thinking of, but rushing that could cost you more than the throwaway battery quite likely.


My numbers of course could be way out, but that is what it all looks like from your initial values you quoted. The battery capacity test under a constant load is the only way you will know what the state of your battery is.
Thankyou, Thankyou a voluminous yet most enlightening response I feel for the first time I'm beginning to understand a little of the issues and can make some informed choices, Thankyou for taking the time to write such a full answer
 
I can give you an example actually from my own motorhome ....
I bought my Motorhome when it was 12 years old. It was fitted with a pair of 120AH AGM Batteries some time previously.
The electrics were totally standard - no Inverter, only 2 x 12V sockets (for 2 x TVs) and NO USB Sockets. so the opportunity to actually use the battery power was quite limited.
Plugged into EHU at home when I got it. About 4 days after I got the Motorhome, I went to the Kelso Motorhomer Meet with full batteries The first evening of the meet, I lost my lights and the TV went off when the battery voltage level dropped below the threshold for the system to stay on (around 10.8V?).
So my 240Ah battery bank in my new motorhome maybe gave me around 25Ah? Batteries obviously toast after likely 10 odd years of use.

(I was not massively surprised TBH and it was always going to be on the radar to replace, but I did not quite expect them to be quite that bad and decide on replacements so soon. Next overnight trip out the next week to the Peaks, I used an EHU Pitch :) )
 
I can give you an example actually from my own motorhome ....
I bought my Motorhome when it was 12 years old. It was fitted with a pair of 120AH AGM Batteries some time previously.
The electrics were totally standard - no Inverter, only 2 x 12V sockets (for 2 x TVs) and NO USB Sockets. so the opportunity to actually use the battery power was quite limited.
Plugged into EHU at home when I got it. About 4 days after I got the Motorhome, I went to the Kelso Motorhomer Meet with full batteries The first evening of the meet, I lost my lights and the TV went off when the battery voltage level dropped below the threshold for the system to stay on (around 10.8V?).
So my 240Ah battery bank in my new motorhome maybe gave me around 25Ah? Batteries obviously toast after likely 10 odd years of use.

(I was not massively surprised TBH and it was always going to be on the radar to replace, but I did not quite expect them to be quite that bad and decide on replacements so soon. Next overnight trip out the next week to the Peaks, I used an EHU Pitch :) )
I can see the parallels, I've started wheels in motion to get lithium installed, thanks again
 
I bought our 2008 vintage van in 2017 and the batteries may or may not have been new then. Just spent 5 nights off grid and the solar struggled to get a full charge back in as the weather was so bad. Last night I checked the stus at 3.00am (yes, 3.00am!) and although I still had 107 Amp/hours of the maximum 128Ah the output was only 12 volt on leisure batteries and 12.5 on vehicle battery. This morning at 8.00am the situation was the same and a small charge was going in and now at nearly 12.00am I have a full charge and 13.1 and 13.5v respectively.

Is this normal that voltage should drop as battery discharges albeit still with a good capacity?

Be gentle as I am an electrical numpty, I know the age indicates the batteries need renewing but was hoping to wait until the autumn and research lithium then

Thanks
Hi,
I'm assuming you have a pair of leisure batteries, as I have in my 06 Hymer T GT. If that's the case just check each of the batteries separately. To do that, you will need to go to the solar panel regulator and disconnect the + cables, (very carefully) because in full sunlight you'll be getting quite a high voltage coming down those cables. Then, disconnect both batteries, & start with checking they are the same make & spec. AND then, what are they reading at standing idle, and, are they 'Deep Cycle'?

I bought our Hymie about 8-9 years ago on a trade, and only 2 weeks later we were down in South East Brittany, when we had a total 12volt failure. Found & went to a Motorhome dealer in Quimper, where the manager knew exactly what the problem was before the engineers even looked, & so to find that one battery was easily accessible under the side bench seat, & was fairly new, the other was located under the passenger seat, which requires removal of the seat, which was;
a) badly swollen, so had completely failed, & could have burst open,
b) seemed to be the original factory fitted unit, & c) was a different spec to the newer battery.
They then discovered the battery failure had damaged the electroblock unit, located under the drivers seat. The van was under warranty, so I thought no problem, but there was a problem, I would have to wait 2 weeks for a replacement electroblock from Germany at a cost €1,000. couldn't do that, so was given an electronic charger to charge the newly fitted batteries, all together at a cost of €450. The vendor, whom I cannot name for legal reasons, wouldn't pay for the batteries but,,, I found an Electroblock restorer in North Wales on return, cost at £120., which the vendor had to pay for. I should have taken legal action, but hey, a lesson learned about leisure batteries.
So, do go through the procedure I've just shown you here on checking before you buy new, then, remember that 'Deep Cycle' batteries can be run down to very low levels without any damage, & will come right back up again, AND....go on for years. I wouldn't go to the expense of lithium, not worth it, and your present electrical system is designed for Lead Acid Batteries. I also would avoid Gell,
Don't be scared by the figures you're reading on the panel. Just check everything first. And then look into the best manufactures of Deep Cycle Batteries, Yusa for e.g., is just one, & there are a few others.

Good Luck & Happy Camping
TJ
 
After your existing batterys have lasted at least 5 yrs why do You want to change them for something different
I would agree.
Given the OP would seem to be pretty economical with battery use (5 days sucessfully off-grid with almost certainly failing ones), I can't see any real value in switching to Lithium and all the extra complications and expense that goes with it on top of the actual battery cost.

Unless there is significant plans to change how the motorhome is used, I would be inclined to go for, as previously suggested by a poster in the thread, a Lead Carbon type battery (easily the best option in the Lead Acid battery world at present) which will neccessitate zero changes to the electrical setupand still give you an excellent solution.
 
After your existing batterys have lasted at least 5 yrs why do You want to change them for something different
It would be nice to be less economical on power, maybe use a romeska or slow cooker but I will have to do a cost/benefit analysis
 
It would be nice to be less economical on power, maybe use a romeska or slow cooker but I will have to do a cost/benefit analysis
Lithium Batteries have a number of advantages, but they are still just a source of power. You can run a romoska or slow cooker perfectly fine on a Lead Acid based setup. My last camper was an LPG-free zone, and I cooked on Electric (2kW Induction) and heated the Water on Electric (2kW 240V Element) as well as having a 240V Fridge.
And not a Lithium battery in sight (ran on 3 x 215Ah Lead Carbon AGMs at a cost of under a single 100Ah Lithium at that time)
 
I would agree.
Given the OP would seem to be pretty economical with battery use (5 days sucessfully off-grid with almost certainly failing ones), I can't see any real value in switching to Lithium and all the extra complications and expense that goes with it on top of the actual battery cost.

Unless there is significant plans to change how the motorhome is used, I would be inclined to go for, as previously suggested by a poster in the thread, a Lead Carbon type battery (easily the best option in the Lead Acid battery world at present) which will neccessitate zero changes to the electrical setupand still give you an excellent solution.
Witsend,
I completely agree 👍
 
Whatever you choose as replacements do it soon.
I decided my batteries were knackered as no longer holding charge dropping below 12v after a couple of hours.
Better replace them as soon as we get back home I thought..........................I wonder what replacements I'll get ?
It's obvious now, but if you decide a battery is knackered you can't keep pumping juice in from EHU. This seat is very hot said my wife and what's that smell...............................well they were hissing and fizzing no doubt ready to explode.
We just caught them in time...............so be warned.........it's obvious now.
 
I bought our 2008 vintage van in 2017 and the batteries may or may not have been new then. Just spent 5 nights off grid and the solar struggled to get a full charge back in as the weather was so bad. Last night I checked the stus at 3.00am (yes, 3.00am!) and although I still had 107 Amp/hours of the maximum 128Ah the output was only 12 volt on leisure batteries and 12.5 on vehicle battery. This morning at 8.00am the situation was the same and a small charge was going in and now at nearly 12.00am I have a full charge and 13.1 and 13.5v respectively.

Is this normal that voltage should drop as battery discharges albeit still with a good capacity?

Be gentle as I am an electrical numpty, I know the age indicates the batteries need renewing but was hoping to wait until the autumn and research lithium then

Thanks
I would consider your most likely issue is ageing and failing habitation batteries, it may be worth having your van and charging system checked over by someone with sufficient electrical skills to determine that your solar panel /s and controller and vehicle charging systems are working correctly and both are efficient, (technology moves on), if they are, they can advise you on battery replacement options. Good luck all fixable.
 

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Back
Top