Electric cars, Emperor's new clothes???

[Vanterrier]

I've just been wandering around a one horse town in Scotland and was surprised to come across a charging point,just shows the infrastructure is getting better all the time.

They have electric horses in Scotland ???
K

 

[Asterix]

I think Scotland is a lot more switched on regarding renewables than England in the main

I did see a "Fully Charged Show" recently about Dundee,they're probably the most switched on place in the UK,loads going on there with electric taxis,solar,charging etc.

 

[Asterix]

They have electric horses in Scotland ???
K

Yes,if you decide to get one I'll show you where the plug goes.

 

[Vanterrier]

But their emmisions are terrible!

K

 

[St3v3]

I think Scotland is a lot more switched on

 

[Whitetornado]

While you claim that the relationship between temperature and CO2 concentration was calculated in the 19th century, I can't find any source to verify that claim. That said, at best a correlation was established but not causality. First, CO2 is a "trace gas" -- only 0.04% of the atmosphere is CO2. Of this small amount, only 3% is from human activities -- i.e. CO2 from human activities accounts for approx 1 thousandth of one percent of the atmosphere. CO2 concentration might be significant if it were a toxin, but it isn't; it's harmless. The fact is that CO2 concentration was ten times higher during the Cambrian Explosion (when oxygen breathing animal life really took off), so even doubling of atmospheric CO2 won't be an issue.

Now to my "Canute" reference. Atmospheric CO2 concentration lags temperature change. That is, changes in CO2 concentration occur in response to changes in temperature. Several proxies show this for the rapid warming events that occured during the last ice age and the holocene -- all but the current one occurring before industrialisation. Trying to lower (97% natural) CO2 atmospheric concentration is futile -- just as was Canute's attempt to control the tide.

Right. First, Arrhenius described the link between co2 and temperature in 1896. He did this by calculation not observation, so I'm not sure how you arrive at the idea that it was only correlation. Second, it doesn't matter that co2 is a small proportion of the atmosphere, it's potent. If I took female hormones at 0.0005 of one part per million, I would effectively change sex. Third: in the Cambrian, life did expand- in the sea. Pretty much nothing except bacteria could survive on land. Fourth: you're correct that co2 has not always lead warming: through the history of the world a key trigger has been the wobble in the earth orbit. This has tended to trigger rises in co2 and ch4 which have then magnified the effect and led to it running away. This time, clever old us have managed to trigger it all by ourselves, with all that tedious hanging around!

 

[RV2MAX]

Right. First, Arrhenius described the link between co2 and temperature in 1896. He did this by calculation not observation, so I'm not sure how you arrive at the idea that it was only correlation. Second, it doesn't matter that co2 is a small proportion of the atmosphere, it's potent. If I took female hormones at 0.0005 of one part per million, I would effectively change sex. Third: in the Cambrian, life did expand- in the sea. Pretty much nothing except bacteria could survive on land. Fourth: you're correct that co2 has not always lead warming: through the history of the world a key trigger has been the wobble in the earth orbit. This has tended to trigger rises in co2 and ch4 which have then magnified the effect and led to it running away. This time, clever old us have managed to trigger it all by ourselves, with all that tedious hanging around!

Everyone is entitled to their own religion , but beware of false prophets .

Saw interesting vid on tesla X 300 mile range collapse to 100 towing a 4000lb trailer , still a long way to go !

 

[trevskoda]

Most car bodies last a lot longer than the mechanicals. My 9 year old Skoda looked like new when it was totalled by a cambelt failure. Nissan keep increasing the battery capacity of the LEAF battery in the same size casing, so when my battery eventually degrades it should be no problem not only to replace it but to upgrade.

Not these days my skoda engine did 314000 but body work around sill and floor went bad,i had welded two years before but could not be arced again,if you c/belt snapped its because you did not change it in time or some garage did not bother,push rod engines are best.

 

[Whitetornado]

Not these days my skoda engine did 314000 but body work around sill and floor went bad,i had welded two years before but could not be arced again,if you c/belt snapped its because you did not change it in time or some garage did not bother,push rod engines are best.

Handbook said change at 100k. AA man said oh they never lasted that long, people usually change them at 50k! Why do people never tell you this stuff before?

 

[GeoffL]

Right. First, Arrhenius described the link between co2 and temperature in 1896. He did this by calculation not observation, so I'm not sure how you arrive at the idea that it was only correlation. [...]

When appealing to authority, it's probably a good idea to verify that the authority cited is a valid support of your claims. Arrhenius's main work was in regard of ion concentrations of solutions with varying temperature. Although he attempted to 'reverse extrapolate' this work (and that of others) and made many assumptions and estimates in an attempt to determine how atmospheric concentration of CO2 might affect global temperature, his conclusions were incorrect. As NASA report:

As Arrhenius predicted, both carbon dioxide levels and temperatures increased from 1900–1999. However, carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has increased much more quickly than he expected, but the Earth hasn't warmed as much as he thought it would.

This shouldn't surprise as, even with access to supercomputers, the IPCC haven't yet managed to successfully model global climate. Also, CO2 concentration is the dependent, not the determinant in the relationship between it and global temperature. We have a plausible reason for this: that solubility of CO2 decreases with increasing temperature, so the oceans can't hold so much in solution and excess escapes to atmosphere thus increasing atmospheric CO2 concentration. Add to that the fact that atmospheric CO2 concentration lags temperature fluctuation. Apply Occam's Razor and the only logical conclusion is that atmospheric CO2 concentration changes in response to global temperature changes rather than causes those changes.

 

[Millie Master]

Handbook said change at 100k. AA man said oh they never lasted that long, people usually change them at 50k! Why do people never tell you this stuff before?

I have never met an AA man who actually knows what they are talking about, they are out of the very same mould as tyre fitters!!

 

[St3v3]

I have never met an AA man who actually knows what they are talking about, they are out of the very same mould as tyre fitters!!

Seems in this instance he was correct lol.

 

[Barge1914]

When looking at EV as a way to reduce emissions and comparing against any other means of propulsion should we not in theory be considering the FULL CARBON FOOTPRINT. What I mean is how much CO2 was created in mining Lithium ore, extracting the Lithium, making it into a useable battery etc. Such batteries are not created magically and I would imagine a significant amount of processing and therefore energy goes into the making of these batteries ?
Coal dug up and chucked on a fire to make steam involves much less processing ? Wouldn't it be a laugh if coal has less carbon footprint than the hi-tech Li-Po's.

It would be kind of ironic wouldn’t it. However I remember as a young ‘un climbing on Stanage Edge and finding the rocks coated black in places with the ‘carbon’ blown over from Manchester (it’s all gone now)...and I remember the good folks in Scandinavia being somewhat peeved at their trees dying from the acid rain kindly sent over to them by our fine and stately Yorkshire coal fired power stations. Some clocks don’t need turning back.

 

[Barge1914]

I've just been wandering around a one horse town in Scotland and was surprised to come across a charging point,just shows the infrastructure is getting better all the time.

A charging point for a horse...hmmm!

 

[tonybvi]

Thanks very much for posting this panel discussion, Terry. Just watched it all the way through and found it really interesting and relatively unbiased considering the panel all have vested interests in EV. But then as you know I have a pro-EV bias!
However I wish they had given that lady with the short legs a foot stool to stop her jiggling her legs all the time!

 

[tonybvi]

No three phase required at home but did need to ensure at least 60amp main fuse (luckily mine was 100). However my home charger only charges at 7kw rather than the 22kw and higher frequently found on public chargers. Plenty enough for me for overnight charging.
I particularly liked the comment about Norway managing their oil income better than us at home. Having lived over there for 5 years I can fully agree with this.

 

[tonybvi]

In addition to the oil fund (nearest they ever got here was the Shetland Island Council scheme) when we applied to open an office in Norway the government would only give us approval if we went to Bergen. Their whole aim was to spread oil related employment and money throughout Norway, rather than concentrating it in Stavanger and Oslo. They continued this throughout the good years such that there is oil related industry the length of the west coast of Norway so every commune benefits.

 

[in h]

Most car bodies last a lot longer than the mechanicals. My 9 year old Skoda looked like new when it was totalled by a cambelt failure. Nissan keep increasing the battery capacity of the LEAF battery in the same size casing, so when my battery eventually degrades it should be no problem not only to replace it but to upgrade.

Your car wasn't totalled by a cambelt failure. The engine could have been repaired, but it'd cost more then the car was worth.
And what is the car worth? An arbitrary figure set by a comic called Glass' Guide. They record the prices that vehicles fetch at auction as the arbiter of their value.
If you go to a car auction, you will see the dealers looking at Glass' Guide and bidding accordingly.
So the book price is based on the book price and the car value is heard on the book price.
That's why repairable cars get scrapped.

 

[GeoffL]

Your car wasn't totalled by a cambelt failure. The engine could have been repaired, but it'd cost more then the car was worth.
And what is the car worth? An arbitrary figure set by a comic called Glass' Guide. They record the prices that vehicles fetch at auction as the arbiter of their value.
If you go to a car auction, you will see the dealers looking at Glass' Guide and bidding accordingly.
So the book price is based on the book price and the car value is heard on the book price.
That's why repairable cars get scrapped.

Ain't that the truth. I sold my 2001 Citroen Dispatch to a scrapyard a few weeks ago because there was a horrible, very loud rattling noise coming from inside the cambelt cover. The cambelt tensioner had probably given way, but I haven't got the facilities to do the necessary work, my local garage wanted hundreds just to investigate and the vehicle also needed new brakes and exhaust for the MOT. To me, the van was beyond economical repair. Thankfully, the scrapyard have the facilities and the spares -- they declared the van "too nice to scrap and fit for further use" -- and have 'resurrected' it. AFAICT, they'll use it for a while and then sell it on.

That said, the current policy seems to be to ban older-but-perfectly-usable vehicles from city centres: a policy that (wastefully IMO) will make anything over ten years old almost worthless. However, there is a silver lining to this cloud as I replaced the Dispatch with a 120,000 mile, 2004 diesel MPV for just over a grand!

 

[trevskoda]

Ain't that the truth. I sold my 2001 Citroen Dispatch to a scrapyard a few weeks ago because there was a horrible, very loud rattling noise coming from inside the cambelt cover. The cambelt tensioner had probably given way, but I haven't got the facilities to do the necessary work, my local garage wanted hundreds just to investigate and the vehicle also needed new brakes and exhaust for the MOT. To me, the van was beyond economical repair. Thankfully, the scrapyard have the facilities and the spares -- they declared the van "too nice to scrap and fit for further use" -- and have 'resurrected' it. AFAICT, they'll use it for a while and then sell it on.

That said, the current policy seems to be to ban older-but-perfectly-usable vehicles from city centres: a policy that (wastefully IMO) will make anything over ten years old almost worthless. However, there is a silver lining to this cloud as I replaced the Dispatch with a 120,000 mile, 2004 diesel MPV for just over a grand!

Most cars here are at auction at 4 years old as they require a mot and dealers who take them as trade ins dont want them as the brains may give trouble ,so thay dont sell them to public.
Very few cars here as old as your car at 2001,i must of had the oldest at 22 years old,folks here roll there eyes if your car is more than a few years old,you do have to keep up with the jones.