hairydog
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How much is it? We're on mains gas!
hairydog
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Boats are a special case: LPG is tricky because a dropout hole is tricky.
So LPG solutions are far less suitable for boats than they are for motorhomes,
wildebus
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I paid just under 60p for 600L but I think if I get more will shop around much more aggresively (may move before more oil as summer use is very little.
Molly 3
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yes I got rid of gas on my boat and fitted a meths cooker bit slower than gas .I would be happy with a meths cooker in a self build .
wildebus
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Something that I don't think you have factored in for your price/kWh is the actual efficiency of the cooker in terms of Energy Transference.
An electric induction hob is at least twice as fast to boil water as a gas hob of the same power rating I found
When I use my Induction hob, there is not space heating of the area happening. When I was away camping last year back in May it was a bit chilly in the evening so instead of using the electric hob to boil water for some hot chocolate I used a portable gas hob instead as that heated the interior really well at the same time. (so handy in the winter but not so desirable in the summer).
EDIT: quick little search found this:
Induction stovetops, those darlings of the foodie set, are widely considered to be the most energy-efficient cookers out there. They work by harnessing the power of magnetic energy created between the burner and your cookware, heating up lightning-quick and allowing for precise temperature adjustments (head over here for more details on the physics, including a neat-o diagram). Because they heat your pots and pans through direct contact, with no heat lost to the surrounding air, they notch about 84 percent to 90 percent efficiency. Compare that to electric elements, which boast about 74 percent efficiency, and gas burners, coming in last at 50 to 55 percent.
hairydog
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Sadly, that's only slightly true. Yes, an induction hob is more efficient than a saucepan of water, but it is less efficient than an electric kettle, where the element is embedded in to water.
The "waste" heat isn't wasted, either: it heats the air, which is a bonus most of the year.
With "free" solar power costing more than ten times as much as LPG (if the electricity is stored in a battery) it can never even approach being competitive, however efficient it is.
If you have an aversion to LPG that's fine, but the economic case for solar electricity is very suspect.
The "waste" heat isn't wasted, either: it heats the air, which is a bonus most of the year.
With "free" solar power costing more than ten times as much as LPG (if the electricity is stored in a battery) it can never even approach being competitive, however efficient it is.
If you have an aversion to LPG that's fine, but the economic case for solar electricity is very suspect.
wildebus
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But if you are quoting calculations like you have, to give a price per kWh, to make it valid you cannot ignore efficiencies of cooking methods OR say "heating the air is a bonus" to make it seem better. I could equally counter with "the gas is heating the air and I need to turn the fan up to increase air flow, which is an extra use of electricity that I wouldn't need to use otherwise". That comment is equally valid.
if you have an aversion to NOT using LPG that's fine, but don't skew the numbers to make your argument more valid otherwise all your numbers become very suspect.
if you have an aversion to NOT using LPG that's fine, but don't skew the numbers to make your argument more valid otherwise all your numbers become very suspect.
hairydog
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I am not skewing the numbers in any way whatsoever.
The efficiency of any hob cooking fuel is more or less the same. Yes, an induction hob is marginally more efficient because no heat goes round the sides, but just as much goes through the sides. But it is less efficient than a jug kettle*.
The claims about induction hobs' much higher efficiency are mostly hogwash. Don't take my word for it: do a test.
Get three lots of 1 litre of water at a given temperature, then see how much power it takes to boil that one litre in a jug kettle, in a kettle on an induction hob and a kettle on a normal electric hob.
I'd be interested to see your results.
I appreciate that you can't do the test on gas because you don't have gas, but the actual heat source makes little difference: it'll be about the same efficiency as the conventional electric hob.
And yes, too narrow a pan and gas turned up up too high can waste more, but that's not what happens in the real world.
It seems to me that you decided that electricity is best and are only looking at "facts" that support your assertion.
For some people in some situations, electricity is indeed best, but in general, that is not true for the vast majority.
That's why all the high-end motorhomes have LPG-powered cooking and heating. And most of the non-high-end ones as well.
[later]
* Just realised that some people have jug kettles with the element underneath the floor of the kettle. I don't mean one of them: I mean the sort with the element inside the water being heated.
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hairydog
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Hmmm. I'd not even considered meths. Were you planning to use it for space and water heating as well as cooking?
As far as I can tell, meths is a bit over £3 per litre sold retail.
It is mostly methanol, which is 5.85 Kwh / litre, which works out at 51.3p / KWh
But I think I'd find it inconvenient and a bit scary as a fuel.
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wildebus
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most modern kettles have the element NOT in water in fact.
I can do the test with gas if I wanted (which I won't be) as I have a portable gas hob (as mentioned, used to warm up the van while boiling some water. same doesn't happen with electric so OBVIOUSLY there is wasted energy. how you deny that now but in the previous post admitted it I don't know. Not Donald Trump are you?). Apart from which I don't have a convential electric hob, I have an Induction one.
No heat on my kettle goes through the sides as it is silicon
Ref a test, this may be of interest to the open minded ....
hairydog
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Er, David, you are ranting.
That "test" is completely irrelevant: they are comparing the speed, not the efficiency. Though they wave their hands about to feel wasted heat, there is no measure in their test of how much power goes into the gas burner. They're using a similar sort of hob that many motorhomes have, and are, frankly, a bit slow.
I can boil 500ml of water faster than that using a gas appliance: I have a gas Aga, whose rapid heating plate is around 360 degrees C, and very massive, so putting a cool kettle on it makes little difference, even though its burner is only 6Kw.
It's fast, but to suggest that it is efficient is as far from the truth as you could get!
That "test" is completely irrelevant: they are comparing the speed, not the efficiency. Though they wave their hands about to feel wasted heat, there is no measure in their test of how much power goes into the gas burner. They're using a similar sort of hob that many motorhomes have, and are, frankly, a bit slow.
I can boil 500ml of water faster than that using a gas appliance: I have a gas Aga, whose rapid heating plate is around 360 degrees C, and very massive, so putting a cool kettle on it makes little difference, even though its burner is only 6Kw.
It's fast, but to suggest that it is efficient is as far from the truth as you could get!
wildebus
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speed can be an indication of efficiency.
I know when I use my 2kW induction hob to boil water in the camper, I actually set it at around 400W as otherwise by the time the teabag is in the mug and the milk and sugar ready the water would have all boiled away! (maybe that is an indication also of my own personal lack of efficiency and speed )
I know when I use my 2kW induction hob to boil water in the camper, I actually set it at around 400W as otherwise by the time the teabag is in the mug and the milk and sugar ready the water would have all boiled away! (maybe that is an indication also of my own personal lack of efficiency and speed
)hairydog
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Speed is only an indicator of efficiency when other factors are equal. In this case, they are far from equal. And as you rightly point out, speed isn't always needed, or even desirablespeed can be an indication of efficiency.
I know when I use my 2kW induction hob to boil water in the camper, I actually set it at around 400W as otherwise by the time the teabag is in the mug and the milk and sugar ready the water would have all boiled away! (maybe that is an indication also of my own personal lack of efficiency and speed
Martin vandiesel
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money is always a factor when planning a conversation
But do not forget to factor in the ease of having no gas!
When I converted mine I admit not the cheapest way
I went the diesel route
webasto hob £1000
Webasto evotop 7 £2500 fitted for hotwater and heating
I never have to think about have I got enough gas type of bottle type of regular does this garage sell gas
On diesel cooking and heating never seems to cost a penny and where ever you travel in the world It will always be the same as you can get diesel everywhere
That’s my thoughts on it not right for all but right for me
But do not forget to factor in the ease of having no gas!
When I converted mine I admit not the cheapest way
I went the diesel route
webasto hob £1000
Webasto evotop 7 £2500 fitted for hotwater and heating
I never have to think about have I got enough gas type of bottle type of regular does this garage sell gas
On diesel cooking and heating never seems to cost a penny and where ever you travel in the world It will always be the same as you can get diesel everywhere
That’s my thoughts on it not right for all but right for me
hairydog
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Gas is always easily available. Refilling is a bit tricky in the highlands of Scotland, but not really any where else. Bottles are available everywhere.
But apart from the extra fuel cost, diesel is fine as a fuel. Pay £1000 for a hob? Ouch!
kangooroo
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I'm revisiting this thread nearly 4 years later, now with an all-diesel campervan standing in the driveway.
It's a gas-free self-build Rifter conversion with a Wallas diesel hob which doubles as a hob for cooking with the lid raised or a heater with thermostat with the lid lowered. It's early days but so far very impressive performance and economical in use, especially when tested in the December chill at -9°C. Avoiding having to carry a heavy and bulky gas bottle is a huge advantage in a small vehicle and even more so now that gas bottles are not so easy to source.
It's a gas-free self-build Rifter conversion with a Wallas diesel hob which doubles as a hob for cooking with the lid raised or a heater with thermostat with the lid lowered. It's early days but so far very impressive performance and economical in use, especially when tested in the December chill at -9°C. Avoiding having to carry a heavy and bulky gas bottle is a huge advantage in a small vehicle and even more so now that gas bottles are not so easy to source.
