Motorhome with motorbike/moped in garage is a "living van" - not motorcarvan

ActiveCampers

ActiveCampers

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Just passing on what I've read on a Facebook forum....

Some guy in a self built campervan, registered with DVLA as a motorcaravan, but carrying a motorcross bike in the garage was pulled randomly by VOSA and then been "done" - as VOSA say using the campervan to transport a motorbike makes it not a campervan - it become a "living van" and needs different MOT, taxation class, speed limits etc.

DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER - I know no more than that! But reading https://www.ukmotorhomes.net/motorhome-faqs/motorhome-mots gives a bit more info, and specifically lower down when the author contacted the authorities and appear to had it confirmed if there is a "garage" for storage of a motorbike (or car) - so like racevans or, technically, includes an A class with a moped in the garage!

I'd never heard of this, but with one known person being pulled and prosecuted for it (when he thought he was complying with all laws) - then it is reality. Apparently he is seeing his solicitor but who knows what will happen.

Anyone else heard of this before?
 
ActiveCampers said:
Just passing on what I've read on a Facebook forum....

Anyone else heard of this before?
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No I haven't heard of that before.

I hope you don't mind but I have copied your post and put it up over on the motorhome builder forum as I know quite a few over there who have motorbikes stored in their garages.

Don't these laws do yer bloody ed in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I did not know there were regs on what you could or could not keep or carry inside or outside ones camper.
I know you are not allowed to use them for hire or reward which means going to a boot sale etc to hold a stall.
 
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Millie Master said:
No I haven't heard of that before.

I hope you don't mind but I have copied your post and put it up over on the motorhome builder forum as I know quite a few over there who have motorbikes stored in their garages.

Don't these laws do yer bloody ed in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Of course, copy away. I think its important to be aware. I read it today on a Facebook self build forum

Being blunt, its possible the person who got pulled had a knackered old van that only just passed "motorcaravan" specs, had bits removed and was being used as a "van". Its also possible its a perfect conversion with a perfect garage for a MX bike for weekends camping and biking. That may make the difference to VOSA in the real world, but not on paper. The detail is not known to me, and neither was this rule
 
AFAIK carrying anything that can be construed as a 'load' (ie not directly related to a motor caravan) CAN cause you issues with vehicle classification (and class 4 MOT status)

Bit of a grey area at best but something to be wary of.
 
I have heard of this in principle and I think has been discussed in the past? When it comes to MOT time, those who carry Motorbikes are advised to remove them to avoid the potential "living van" thing in case the tester sees it.
It is a supposed rule about carrying things that are not required for the purposes of holidaying (who should define what someone needs for their holiday is a discussion in itself!). I think stuff that is carried OUTSIDE it is not considered, but INSIDE it is (makes no sense to me). Full-Timers are likely to fall foul of this ruling I would guess due to the variety of general stuff carried that is not specific to touring holidays.

A friend of ours has a new Motorhome which has a garage that specifically chose soas to carry his motorbike around to trials events (purely entered for pleasure). I need to remind him to get the bike out when it comes to MOT time
 
Cut and pasted from C&U Regs '86
living van. a vehicle used primarily as living accommodation by one or more persons, and which is not also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle.

Best double negatives I know of.
 
Sounds bonkers to me. "Goods or burden that are not needed by one or more persons for the purpose of residence in the vehicle". Well that could apply to push bikes, scooters, satellite dishes, guitars, anything. All of which I carry of course. Ive had a scooter rack on my van for over ten years. will see what happens at the next test. Nothing I suspect.
 
The guy who got done was a random "layby pull in" inspection by VOSA....
 
Would vosa only pull someone over if they had a feeling something didn’t look right in the first place .?
 
VOSA motpr
Trek said:
Would vosa only pull someone over if they had a feeling something didn’t look right in the first place .?
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VOSA motorway wise seem to specialise in any LGV with foreign plates (going off my daily commute via the M6)

However going off their general roadside stops (random laybys etc) they will drag anything in for a check and a tank dip....

Nothing to worry about IF you are fully 'legal' overweight or vehicle anyway not fully roadworthy start sweating....
These guys know their stuff.
 
mistericeman said:
VOSA motpr

VOSA motorway wise seem to specialise in any LGV with foreign plates (going off my daily commute via the M6)

However going off their general roadside stops (random laybys etc) they will drag anything in for a check and a tank dip....

Nothing to worry about IF you are fully 'legal' overweight or vehicle anyway not fully roadworthy start sweating....
These guys know their stuff.
Click to expand...
This is a good point.
Should you be pulled over for a random check and pass, what reason would someone have to require you to allow them to look in a stowage area?
If they say "mind if we take a look" and you reply "yes I do", what can they do? private property and so would require a search warrant if access not offered I would imagine?

A self-build van with a motorbike in would likely mean the bike is right in the living area and stop the camper being 'enjoyed' as a genuine motorhome (and also very obviously in view)?
 
I must admit I have never understood the distinction between a motorcycle carried inside the van as opposed to outside. Ok, so you wouldn't put a van through an mot with a bike on the rack so testers would not have the dilema but roadside checks by DVSA staff? Surely there would be a lot more people stopped - such as Barryd!!!
 
i was once refused an mot on a foreign import,as they said the rear garage i had incorporated could be used for goods. i drove it home and made up a bed in there, took it back and told them it was now a bedroom, they reluctantly agreed and passed it . not happy mind !
taking off the front wheel may change it from ''goods'' to ''spares ''
 
About 6 years ago when I had a lwb sprinter that had been converted to a motor home which had a garage for my son's mx bike we were going to Preston docks mx track and was escorted to the vosa yard at Preston they thoroughly checked over the van and never asked about the mx bike in the garage
 
There is a thread on this subject on our sister site Motorhome Builder, where a member has had clarification requests answered by DVSA
HERE
 
The link to the post on the Motorhome Builder site is https://motorhomebuilder.com/threads/do-you-carry-a-scooter-or-motorbike-in-yor-garage.66490/

As @Edina has so correctly written, my friend (@Squiffy or yet another Phil) has now undertaken quite an extensive amount of research in this matter by contacting the DVSA amongst other organisations and it transpires that currently, any motorhome that carrying a bicycle or motorised scooter or bike then as far as the DVSA are concerned it can no longer be legally termed as a motorhome, but a living van!
However a motorhome carrying a powered disability scooter/buggy is not in conflict with the law and can still be classified as a motorhome.

It would appear that one of the reasons for this matter hitting the fan is that the dreaded VOSA are no longer government funded and they are having to find ways of covering their costs which is why they are sifting through numerous finite and very grey areas of vehicle law.

Over the course of the coming days Phil hopes to have leached out further detail data and information which he is intending to pass onto the big Clubs as well as onto the Motorhome Builder forum.

But here and now, for instance anyone using their motorhome/campervan to take materials for sale at a car boot (for instance), if stopped at a VOSA road side check is likely to be prosecuted because the goods they are carrying are not for the material use of the motorhome and as such their vehicle must be reclassified as a living van!

It's all a load of XYZ as far as I am concerned that potentially affects most of us, so as the saying goes, watch this space!
 
DVSA (new name for VOSA) are having to be a bit woolly in their replies , as AFAIK there have been no stated cases as result of challenge on what the exact definition of goods used in accordance with habitation . Obviously if its samples used for business then its a slam dunk . Likewise , removal of any habitation that would alter its definition of motorcaravan in order to fit bike , m/cycle/ mobility scooter , wheelchair . DVSA does not usually do random stops on non HGV , as they have "targets" and even limiting to HGV stops they have a hard time meeting those , and even selectively stop HGV to those (eg foreign rigid and drag) that help hit the targets . If they were at some point to stop my RV with the scooter on rear and prosecute , I would contest rather than accept and do so with a good degree of confidence:)
DVSA are an executive Agency of the DFT and are Government funded , they also get income from functions they fulfill , eg MOT, driving tests , inspections etc .
 
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Very interesting and thank you @ActiveCampers for bringing this up. I knew horse boxes needed to comply with living van regulations because you can’t argue that the horse is needed for camping/domestic purposes. I guess it is not a big leap to treat a motocross bike the same. However I wonder if the the DVSA Officer might have avoided testing the law on a registered and roadworthy motorcycle where it might be argued it was needed for domestic supplies whilst on holiday and was not goods. I mention this only because if this prosecution succeeds it might need a further one to prove that it also applies to a moped, scooter or small motorcyle intended for domestic living use.

I also wonder if the place where the DVSA chose to randomly pull this motorhome was on a route to a known motocross meet, where they might expect to find motorcycles and kit that could easily be described as goods.

Perhaps safer to put it on a trailer and tow it.
 
God, what a minefield! :(

Do these wooly rules always apply to factory coachbuilts, or just self-build van conversions?

Wouldn't your type of insurance cover a lot of issues?

If you were using your camper for 'business purposes' etc. and had insurance to cover use for that?

The issue of whether a bike/motorbike etc. is stored inside/outside a camper making it either a living van or otherwise seems to be a particularly stupid distinction. :mad:

Wonder if there's ever been any cases like this tested by the courts?? :unsure:
 
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