Motorhome with motorbike/moped in garage is a "living van" - not motorcarvan

God, what a minefield! :(

Do these wooly rules always apply to factory coachbuilts, or just self-build van conversions?

Wouldn't your type of insurance cover a lot of issues?

If you were using your camper for 'business purposes' etc. and had insurance to cover use for that?

The issue of whether a bike/motorbike etc. is stored inside/outside a camper making it either a living van or otherwise seems to be a particularly stupid distinction. :mad:

Wonder if there's ever been any cases like this tested by the courts?? :unsure:

It appears to apply to all motorhomes but the rules seem to be a bit less onerous for vehicles with a MAM of 3000kg to 3500kg than for those over 3500kg.
 
God, what a minefield! :(

A. Do these wooly rules always apply to factory coachbuilts, or just self-build van conversions?

B. Wouldn't your type of insurance cover a lot of issues?

C. If you were using your camper for 'business purposes' etc. and had insurance to cover use for that?

The issue of whether a bike/motorbike etc. is stored inside/outside a camper making it either a living van or otherwise seems to be a particularly stupid distinction. :mad:

D. Wonder if there's ever been any cases like this tested by the courts?? :unsure:

@mariesnowgoose from what I have read so far on this matter, I answer your 4 questions (A. B. C. & D.) with my perceived interpretations:-

A. I believe that any vehicle which is registered with the DVLA and marked as such on the V5 document as a motorhome is covered by these grey area laws.

B. I very much doubt if any insurance company currently knows of this problem, but I wouldn't mind betting that if any motorhome which was carrying a scooter for example in the garage and that vehicle was involved in a major RTA where the VOSA was called to inspect the vehicle and immediately ruled that it was incorrectly detailed on the V5 etc., then if this was the case, no doubt the insurance company could well call the policy into question!

C. If you were using your motorhome to carry any type of goods for your business then most certainly, according to what VOSA have already said, then the vehicle needs to be reclassified as a "Living Van".................. and that in turn could result in the main clubs not allowing you onto their sites! (It's a bloody stupid minefield which is why the Clubs technical departments are now looking into this matter with some urgency)

D. I believe I can recall @trevskoda mentioning that he had read about a case being called and that as I type he is trying to find where he read it.

I hope this helps

Phil

ps. As if and when enough information is compiled, then armed with this data that we all write to our own respective MP's raising this vitally important area of concern with the view to getting the law book re-written. The easiest way to make contact with them is via this link https://www.writetothem.com I know this link works as I am in regular contact with my own publicly elected and totally useless example!!
 
ps. As if and when enough information is compiled, then armed with this data that we all write to our own respective MP's raising this vitally important area of concern with the view to getting the law book re-written.
You are probably right but I have a little nagging doubt about stirring things up, it could backfire. The existing daft arrangements might end up being even more daft by the time our politicians and the Civil Service have had a go at them. A particular risk if the existing arrangements are seen as a concession to motorhomers. If it gets complicated they might just decide to bin this complex arrangement in favour of treating everything heavier than the PM’s Range Rover as a goods vehicle.

A wise colleague once said to me “if you might not like the answer don’t ask the question”.
 
A. I believe that any vehicle which is registered with the DVLA and marked as such on the V5 document as a motorhome is covered by these grey area laws.
It is important to distinquish between DVLA and DVSA/VOSA. They do not talk to each other either verbally or electronically (why there needs to be two different departments that should be interlinked but are not I don't know).
When I tried to get a new DVSA Inspection (i.e. HGV 'MOT') on my 4.6t Van, I was not able to do so at the DVSA Inspectorate as it had no HGV plate. They had no record of the vehicle on their system despite it being registered quite legally as an Private HGV with the DVLA on the V5C with the classification of Panel Van/Windows.
In the end I just went to a commercial MOT Station (regular ones didn't have suitable lift) and got the vehicle MOTed as a Motor Caravan, despite the fact it was NOT a Motor Caravan on the V5C of course.


....
B. I very much doubt if any insurance company currently knows of this problem, but I wouldn't mind betting that if any motorhome which was carrying a scooter for example in the garage and that vehicle was involved in a major RTA where the VOSA was called to inspect the vehicle and immediately ruled that it was incorrectly detailed on the V5 etc., then if this was the case, no doubt the insurance company could well call the policy into question!
Ref this point:
What is detailed on the V5C in terms of Vehicle Type does not always match the use of the vehicle, and it is more relevant that the Insurance matches against the vehicle usage and not the V5C.
I gave an example previously where I had Campervan insurance on my VW T5 Shuttle - this was an MPV and not a Motor Caravan and I kept it that way with the full knowledge and agreement of the Insurance Broker and Underwriter.
Other very common example that most self-builders will have experienced is having a Campervan policy on a van that is still classified as a Panel Van or similar whist they are converting it. That could be regarded as incorrect in terms of type vs use.
My own current van went from a Minibus to a Panel Van/Windows to a Motor Caravan all within the space of a single Insurance period, and also from a PLG to a PHGV in the same time scale, with the full knowledge of the Insurance Company and no changes to the policy made.
One problem with the "Living Van" thing is I don't think there is a vehicle classification of "Living Van" either, so it would not be possible to reclassify to that AFAIK.


So there are three factors I think....
What insurance do you have. This does NOT automatically have to match against the vehicle class on the V5C as described above, but must match the USE of the vehicle. For example, I have cover for Commuting on my Motor Caravan as a precaution, despite a Motor Caravan being regarded as a Recreational Vehicle.
What MOT you have. Surprisingly, when a MOT is carried out, it is carried out with regards to what the vehicle most LOOKS like when it is presented, and NOT what is on the V5C. The testers NEVER refer to the Registration Document before carrying out a test. Hence why my 4.6t Panel Van had a Class IV MOT carried out, because that is what it looked like inside. (and the DVSA Tester that I asked to look at it after he couldn't do the HGV test said the same, and he used to inspect Motor Caravan conversions)
What Use you are putting the vehicle to. This is the awkward one and can change all sorts of things. As I mentioned on a previous reply, if you take these rules to their literal meaning, you go to a Car Boot sale with a load of junk out the loft to sell, not only do you have to go slower than before, but you are also driving a good vehicle (https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits). Would that void the insurance? Probably not as even though you have goods for sale strictly speaking, it would be regarded as a domestic activity I would imagine. But ... the speed limit part IS enforcable I bet.


So some of this is a bit off-topic, but there seems to a lot of scare-mongering about insurance being voided. As always, it is important to be up-front with your Insurance company about your vehicle useage. As long as that is done and they know you carry cycles inside, or a scooter or whatever, then they would have no reason to say the policy is void (you would not need to actually insure the bikes if insured elsewhere. it is not what is covered that it is important, it is the vehicle use that is the key).

NOTE: The above is based on my own opinion, research and experiences. It should be not be construed as any kind of legal advice.
 
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Over on Phil's other site Motorhome Builder, my friend over there who goes by the user name of Squiffy has been in contact with both of the big clubs and I copy below the post that Squiffy posted over there in which he copied a reply he had received from the Caravan & Motorhome Club:-
__________________________________________________________________________​

Ok all I have had a reply from The Caravan and motorhome club.

The answer is as follows.

Dear Phil

Martin Spencer our technical manager has looked into your enquiry and read your attached e/mails.
He has concluded that the information fed back by DVSA is incorrect and would not hold up in a court of law.
The only time the motorhomes identity could be questionable is if at M,O,T stage the motorbike was left on the motorhomes rack and he still thinks this would be arguable ..
So going forward he says that to ignore the hearsay on this, and if anyone was fined they should seek legal advice and appeal the offence.
We do have meetings with DVSA and DVLA and will bring this up when next in communication with these associations.
If you feel this answer is not satisfactory we suggest maybe speaking to the clubs legal help line for extra advice.

Phone number is on your membership card.

Thanks.

Dave Frost

Technical Advisor
Caravan and Motorhome Club
T: +44 (0) 1342 336611
E: technical@camc.com
W: www.camc.com
_______________________________________________________________________________​

Hopefully the above reply will clear matters up for everyone.

The only confusing matter is that Squiffy is in actual fact Phil and of course the boss man of the sites is Phil and just to make matters worse, I also go by the name of Phil................... yes there are a few of us around!!

Phil
 
If I got stopped on a check and they wanted inside I would say 'bollXXs nothing to do with you'. They are only allowed to check the safety of the vehicle not the contents, which are private ,if it is not overweight nothing they can do. VOSA is a private company charged with SAFETY.
 
If I got stopped on a check and they wanted inside I would say 'bollXXs nothing to do with you'. They are only allowed to check the safety of the vehicle not the contents, which are private ,if it is not overweight nothing they can do. VOSA is a private company charged with SAFETY.

See post 26 - VOSA does not exist anymore!
 
God, what a minefield! :(

Do these wooly rules always apply to factory coachbuilts, or just self-build van conversions?

Wouldn't your type of insurance cover a lot of issues?

If you were using your camper for 'business purposes' etc. and had insurance to cover use for that?

The issue of whether a bike/motorbike etc. is stored inside/outside a camper making it either a living van or otherwise seems to be a particularly stupid distinction. :mad:

Wonder if there's ever been any cases like this tested by the courts?? :unsure:
Yes one person has been done in courts,i read it some where but cannot find it again,unless contested this will be used as a test case to do others,if i get some time i shall ask my mot station here what the situation is.
 
If I got stopped on a check and they wanted inside I would say 'bollXXs nothing to do with you'. They are only allowed to check the safety of the vehicle not the contents, which are private ,if it is not overweight nothing they can do. VOSA is a private company charged with SAFETY.

I believe VOSA was and the DVSA is a Government Agency not a private company. As an arm of Government it probably has very extensive powers and I suspect refusing to cooperate with them would just raise their suspicions and land you in even deeper doo doo.

I have seen a boat in harbour stripped down to its basic components by Government officials and not put back together afterwards when nothing was found. So if it were me being stopped I would cooperate fully even if it did involve a small fine because I am sure they have direct lines to other arms of Government who have very drastic powers. The word “bollXXs” would not cross my lips until after we had parted company.
 
If I got stopped on a check and they wanted inside I would say 'bollXXs nothing to do with you'. They are only allowed to check the safety of the vehicle not the contents, which are private ,if it is not overweight nothing they can do. VOSA is a private company charged with SAFETY.
I think you might be getting confused with Highways England , they are no longer a govt agency , unlike DVSA (used to be VOSA) which is a Gov Agency (The crown in its logo confirms that ) . They are allowed to access the vehicle in order to fulfill their duties . Like a lot of these situations when dealing with arms of the Government /Crown failing the
"attitude test" can end up causing you a lot more aggravation than you will cause them . If you feel you have not been dealt with in a fair manner then afterwards there are avenues of complaint or redress. . JMHA
 
If I got stopped on a check and they wanted inside I would say 'bollXXs nothing to do with you'. They are only allowed to check the safety of the vehicle not the contents, which are private ,if it is not overweight nothing they can do. VOSA is a private company charged with SAFETY.
Whilst I might agree with the sentiment, I rather suspect their capacity for making your life miserable is much greater than yours :cautious:
 
I would say there needs to be a reason for a public official to look inside a storage area and not "because they want to".
I would be inclined to also say "No, you can't have a look" if they couldn't give me a decent reason why they want to look AND are polite and pleasant about it as well.

This is probably a pretty accurate description from https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/s...rch-enter-private-property-and-seize-goods-s/
Stopping and searching vehicles

Police officers in uniform have the power to stop a motor vehicle on a road and ask the driver to produce:

  • a driving licence
  • an insurance certificate
  • a test certificate.
A police officer can stop and search a vehicle, for example if s/he suspects that it contains stolen property or drugs.

In some circumstances they can also search a vehicle if they have reasonable grounds to suspect there is at least £1,000 in cash or listed assets (like gold or watches) that has been obtained through criminal activity. There's a code of practice the police have to follow when doing a search for cash or assets.

Police officers have the power to set up a road check and stop all vehicles or selected vehicles on any road.

The above is for Scotland but I would imagine the rules for GB would be very similar if not the same (I would not be shocked at all if the PSNI have greater historical rights though!)
I would rather surprised if DVSA have greater rights than the police when it comes to this kind of thing. The only government body that has greater powers than the police in terms of access and search rights as far as I know are HMRC, who seem to be able to do just about anything they fancy!
 
DVSA can stop , and direct any vehicle on a public road they also have certain powers to enter certain private land. , they can also access eg look in a "garage" to see if a load is being carried in a safe manner . Not all officials have same limits as others , eg HMRC powers exceed many .
 
Perhaps an inflated sex doll sitting astride the offending motorbike would distract the inspector:)
 
Cut and pasted from C&U Regs '86
living van. a vehicle used primarily as living accommodation by one or more persons, and which is not also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle.

Best double negatives I know of.
I just checked this definition in the C&U regs -- and I'm shaking my head here. Let's break this down a little and assume that the vehicle is used "for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed [...] for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle". For example, if the vehicle is used primarily as accommodation but also to take rubbish to the tip, for shopping, or for carrying a motorscooter in the garage. In this case, the predicate, "is not also used for the carriage of goods [...]" is false and the vehicle fails the definition of a "living van" -- that is, it cannot be a living van and the courts should throw out any attempt by DVSA to prosecute someone for this.

FWIW, I suspect that the legislation is either misquoted in legislation.gov.uk or the original legislation contained a typo (the text should have read, "and is also used ...", in which case it might have been amended to correct the error by now. Unfortunately the referenced web page doesn't offer updates.

As an aside, I thought that the purpose of the "living van" classification was to cover vehicles that were used primarily for accommodation but didn't meet the full requirements for a motorcaravan (e.g. if there were no side windows aft of the cab) or were used for business purposes. That said, I agree that it's a confusing minefield.
 
sorry to repeat a true story
i once fitted out a large german army lorry as a safari van, and sectioned off the rear 3 foot to make a w/shop with benches each side and fuel storage , accessed by a central 3 foot wide door.
i was told it had to be classed as a goods vehicle as i could carry goods in this section !
pointing out how stupid this would be did no good, so i went home, rested a piece of ply across the 2 benches and made up a quick bed with foam and a duvet, and took it back . we had this chat-
me- it's now a bedroom for my 14yr old son

them - but there's no internal access to the rest of the van !

me- exactly ! legally we have to take him , but we don't like him ,so he gets this !

after much looking at regs and conferring they [reluctantly] had to allow it.

all rules are open to interpretation !
 

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