Travelling seats without belts?

[GeoffL]

I've searched the 'net but found conflicting information. We have a "Y"-plate 2001 motorhome with 4 belted travelling seats. We'd love to take our son and his family touring when they come over from Australia -- but there's four of them. So we'd like to use put his children in booster seats in the two belted travelling seats in the habitation area and for him and his missus to use two, rear-facing, unbelted seats in the habitation area. However, I'm not sure whether that's lawful -- can anyone say whether this would be lawful?

 

[wildebus]

I've searched the 'net but found conflicting information. We have a "Y"-plate 2001 motorhome with 4 belted travelling seats. We'd love to take our son and his family touring when they come over from Australia -- but there's four of them. So we'd like to use put his children in booster seats in the two belted travelling seats in the habitation area and for him and his missus to use two, rear-facing, unbelted seats in the habitation area. However, I'm not sure whether that's lawful -- can anyone say whether this would be lawful?

Is it a commercial conversion with a recognised brand? If so, then it is likely you cannot use those seats for travel purposes as it was likely originally registered as a Motor Caravan. This is the case from a certain date. Can't recall what date.
If it is a self-conversion with seats that have been added they do not need to legally have seatbelts. This is for any date of registration.

 

[nabsim]

What does your insurance company say? They decided mine was a two seater as only two seats were belted but I didn’t try to get more

 

[GeoffL]

Thanks to both, much appreciated.

Is it a commercial conversion with a recognised brand? If so, then it is likely you cannot use those seats for travel purposes as it was likely originally registered as a Motor Caravan. This is the case from a certain date. Can't recall what date.
If it is a self-conversion with seats that have been added they do not need to legally have seatbelts. This is for any date of registration.

FWIW, the date factor is why I asked the question. A friend had a late 1970s/early 1980s Bedford CF conversion that had seatbelts in the cab only but he could lawfully take his children along unbelted in the U-shaped lounge in the rear. As I understand it, current conversions are limited by the number of seat belts. This linked DoT document states:

it is not specifically illegal to travel in the accommodation area of a campervan

However, there are caveats that suggest construction and use legislation from 1986 and a 1991 ammendment to the Road Traffic Act 1988 might change that.

What does your insurance company say? They decided mine was a two seater as only two seats were belted but I didn’t try to get more

When I insured the van I stated it was a 6-berth with four belted travelling seats. I see nothing on my insurance documentation that limits the number of passengers that can be carried and so the maximum number should be limited by available payload and whether the law permits unbelted passengers.

So (after additional research) my understanding this far is that whether I can carry unbelted passengers depends on whether a court would determine that doing so would be likely to put those passengers or another person in danger -- and I haven't found any case law to suggest a precedent.

 

[TR5]

Firstly, children under certain weights, heights, ages, cannot be carried in unbelted non-travel seats, regardless of vehicle age - full stop.
The current legislation of 'you must travel in 'dedicated travel seats' came into effect October 1997. From this date, the V5c should quote the number of travel seats, but not for vehicles manufactured before this.
The driver has a responsibility to travel with a safely secured load, so although a vehicle may be manufactured prior to Oct 1997, you could still be prosecuted for carrying an unsafe load (the 'load' includes humans), should an issue or accident arise.

I would think your issue is more likely to be weight, as carrying extra passengers, and their luggage and supplies may well take you over the GVW for the vehicle.

 

[wildebus]

You can't regard the V5C document where it states number of seats as an absolute as the vehicle owner can get that changed any time they like and to just about anything they want.
My current vans V5C had 17 seats recorded on it when I bought it. I changed that to 7 a little while later (and I kinda plucked "7" out the air - it was just a number to suit various categories. I then changed it to 4 when I changed it to a Motor Caravan - I only have 2 seats fitted but might want to carry more occasionally so made it higher.

 

[GeoffL]

Thanks, much appreciated.

Firstly, children under certain weights, heights, ages, cannot be carried in unbelted non-travel seats, regardless of vehicle age - full stop.

Children under 3 years cannot travel in vehicles without seat belts. However, children 3 years and older (e.g. my grandkids) may be carried in the rear seats of a vehicle that does not have seat belts. So a motorhome first registered when seat belts were not compulsory and to which belts have not be retro-fitted may be used to carry children over 3 years old, but they must travel in the habitation area. (Link) In other motohomes, it seems that older children must travel in rear seats fitted with belts; which is what I want to do as it's their parents who would travel in unbelted, rear-facing seats.

The current legislation of 'you must travel in 'dedicated travel seats' came into effect October 1997. From this date, the V5c should quote the number of travel seats, but not for vehicles manufactured before this.

FWIW, the V5c for my 2001 motorhome does not show the number of seats, which I suspect might be due to its taxation class of "PHGV". I wonder whether the October 1997 date you mention aligns with changes in type approval requirements, and whether that applies to commercial vehicles (even if converted prior to first registration).

The driver has a responsibility to travel with a safely secured load, so although a vehicle may be manufactured prior to Oct 1997, you could still be prosecuted for carrying an unsafe load (the 'load' includes humans), should an issue or accident arise.

Agreed. However, I suspect it would be down to a court to determine whether the carriage of unbelted passengers was dangerous, and carrying passengers in rear-facing is significantly less dangerous than carrying them in front or side facing seats. So the legality of carrying such unbelted passengers is by no means certain and I haven't found a precedent either way.

I would think your issue is more likely to be weight, as carrying extra passengers, and their luggage and supplies may well take you over the GVW for the vehicle.

My van has a payload in excess of 700 kg, so I should be OK for weight provided I remove one of the two leisure batteries, travel with little water in the tank, and am careful of how much kit we take. 4 adults plus 2 small kids weigh about 400 kg, leaving about 300 kg for food, drink, clothes, etc. That said, I'll still take the van over to a weighbridge as part of my start of season service because all vehicles seem to gain weight with age!

Thanks again, Geoff

 

[Val54]

I think you have had pretty good advice. Your main concern/risk is that if stopped by the police for any reason, you could be prevented from continuing with the unrestrained passengers in situ if the police consider that it constitutes a danger of injury to any person.
Dave

 

[TR5]

You can't regard the V5C document where it states number of seats as an absolute as the vehicle owner can get that changed any time they like and to just about anything they want.
My current vans V5C had 17 seats recorded on it when I bought it. I changed that to 7 a little while later (and I kinda plucked "7" out the air - it was just a number to suit various categories. I then changed it to 4 when I changed it to a Motor Caravan - I only have 2 seats fitted but might want to carry more occasionally so made it higher.

But what age vehicle are you referring to?

 

[wildebus]

But what age vehicle are you referring to?

2003