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Fuel theft!

Markd

Full Member

Messages
344
He also ran a merc diesel car on red , had an auxillary tank in boot , normal tank was not connected but 3/4 full of road fuel .
This is why Revenue would always try to get a sample from the engine bay rather than from the tank
 
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GWAYGWAY

Full Member

Messages
163
It is particularly satisfying to know that the thieving scum had just drained your water tank into their diesel van/tank . luckily my fuel cap is behind the door at the front. the water is all obvious at the back with a nice locking cap (not locked) so it looks the part.
 

Phantom

Full Member

Messages
106
To prevent a fuel tank being drilled I was just wondering if there is any way of alarming it? But guess that fitting a motion sensor where the fuel tank is mounted could be set off by cats etc, probably a slim chance though. Any other ideas?
 

WildCamper

Free Member

Messages
34
To prevent a fuel tank being drilled I was just wondering if there is any way of alarming it? But guess that fitting a motion sensor where the fuel tank is mounted could be set off by cats etc, probably a slim chance though. Any other ideas?
Nice idea.
From memory I believe there were some trucks that sounded an alarm if the fuel gauge went down abnormally quickly so I think there may be fuel theft alarms out there.
 

WildCamper

Free Member

Messages
34
Part 1 - Good on him
Part 2 - Is doing that any less stealing then the people talked about in Part 1?
Yes. Much less in my opinion.

The Government steals from us constantly.
The farmer never stole from the people who stole his diesel.

If the vigilantism in part 1 is acceptable (still illegal) then the vigilantism in part 2 is acceptable too.
 

WildCamper

Free Member

Messages
34
part 1 agree
part 2 no
@wildebus

@WildCamper why part1 illegal ? vigilantism ?
Vigilantism. Taking the law into one's own hands and attempting to effect justice according to one's own understanding of right and wrong.

I believe intent to damage someone else's property is illegal. Revenge does not make it legal.
If you accept part 1 as acceptable it is only your moral compass that rejects part 2.
If you reject part 2 on legality only, you have to reject part 1 also.
 

wildebus

Full Member

Messages
1,860
don't fully understand the replies which seem to to me, but to clarify my own reply and stance.

farmer spiking the fuel that is being stolen:
a product is being stolen. If the legitimate owner of that product wishes to spike it in some way that is up to him. It is up to the thieves if they want to steal it and use it. The fact it will damage the thieves vehicles ... tough. consequence of their actions. Is it illegal to spike it? I very much doubt it. it is his product. he can mess around with it if he wishes to.
The action of stealing it is theft. the action of spiking it before hand. irrelvant. He didn't go up to the thieves vehicles and pour sugar into their tanks (that could be vandalism/vigilantism maybe) but the scumbags poured the concoction into the tanks themselves. their choice, their consequence. zero sympathy.

farmer using fuel on the road that has no road duty paid on it:
Illegal. no two ways about it. if he gets caught, zero sympathy. The fact that he has also gone to the trouble of fitting a hidden tank for the red diesel and blocked off the standard tank that contains road fuel for the sole purpose of trying to fool the authorities makes any possible defence of his actions void and I would expect if he does get caught, he will get the maximum penalties imposed on him. Zero sympathy if that happens also.
 

WildCamper

Free Member

Messages
34
don't fully understand the replies which seem to to me, but to clarify my own reply and stance.

farmer spiking the fuel that is being stolen:
a product is being stolen. If the legitimate owner of that product wishes to spike it in some way that is up to him. It is up to the thieves if they want to steal it and use it. The fact it will damage the thieves vehicles ... tough. consequence of their actions. Is it illegal to spike it? I very much doubt it. it is his product. he can mess around with it if he wishes to.
The action of stealing it is theft. the action of spiking it before hand. irrelvant. He didn't go up to the thieves vehicles and pour sugar into their tanks (that could be vandalism/vigilantism maybe) but the scumbags poured the concoction into the tanks themselves. their choice, their consequence. zero sympathy.

farmer using fuel on the road that has no road duty paid on it:
Illegal. no two ways about it. if he gets caught, zero sympathy. The fact that he has also gone to the trouble of fitting a hidden tank for the red diesel and blocked off the standard tank that contains road fuel for the sole purpose of trying to fool the authorities makes any possible defence of his actions void and I would expect if he does get caught, he will get the maximum penalties imposed on him. Zero sympathy if that happens also.
I accept your principles but reject your argument that seems to imply that it is acceptable to take revenge on a common thief but not the Government.

It is clear the spiked fuel is intended to damage somebody else's property.
That is as devious and wrong as the intent to defraud the Government of their revenue; no more or less.
The farmer (and you and I) think it is okay to deviously take revenge on the common thief.
The farmer (and I) think it is okay to take revenge on the Goverment thief.

To keep fully within the law the farmer should report the matter to the Police. As pointless as that is it is the only legal way.

I would never use red diesel as the risk to reward is not worth it but It clearly is for the farmer. Diesel is overpriced based on lies about saving the environment. Why not help yourself to a cheaper option?

As I say, I accept your principles but I don't believe it can be said that one part of his actions are definitively okay but the other is definitively not okay. Technically they are both wrong and illegal.
 

wildebus

Full Member

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1,860
your view is your view. mine is mine. most of what you say above I reject.
 

RV2MAX

Full Member

Messages
222
The argument ref spiked diesel makes no sense , You might as well say it is illegal for him to make a fuel cocktail coz he didn't put an olive in it . If he had a gun in a cabinet , and someone steals it and shoots someone the farmer should be prosecuted for conspiracy to murder ?
 

WildCamper

Free Member

Messages
34
The argument ref spiked diesel makes no sense , You might as well say it is illegal for him to make a fuel cocktail coz he didn't put an olive in it . If he had a gun in a cabinet , and someone steals it and shoots someone the farmer should be prosecuted for conspiracy to murder ?
I think it is clear what the farmer intended his spiked diesel to do; and that is to damage somebody else's property beyond repair. It is that intent that makes it illegal.
Nowhere does the law allow the citizen to decide the consequences of someone's illegal activity against them. You can't wire your door handles to the mains power just because nobody should be trying them.

Who knows whose vehicle that diesel could have ended up in?
I think it would be fair to assume most people are thinking of a career criminal taking the diesel and good riddance to his property.
What if the thief gave the diesel to someone running a soup kitchen vehicle on a shoestring budget? Would you think it was fair for that person to have his vehicle damaged beyond repair?

The farmer had no idea of the the results of his actions. He could only assume them and there are many situations where there could have been unintended consequences.

With regard the gun analogy it makes no sense as there is no intent.
However if the gun cabinet was unlocked and a someone used the gun to kill, then yes the farmer could be liable.
 

Asterix

Full Member

Messages
229
Sometimes moral rights outweigh legal rights.
 

WildCamper

Free Member

Messages
34
Sometimes moral rights outweigh legal rights.
Yes they should but unfortunately we live in a rules based society where morals have no to little influence in law.

I think it is morally wrong for the Governemt to charge a punitive tax on fuel for me to go to work when I can cruise about on lake Windermere in a boat without the punitive 'environmental' tax. I can also take a flight without the fuel being subject to the punitive 'environmental' tax. I therefore believe the punitive fuel tax is morally wrong.
The morals are with me (I believe) but if I use red diesel to assert my moral right I will be punished in law.
This is why I think both are legally wrong but I accept the farmer's stance on both his actions as acceptable.

We view common theft with rightful disdain but we all suffer more financially from white collar crime and Goverment crime.
 

daygoboy

Free Member

Messages
227
To prevent a fuel tank being drilled I was just wondering if there is any way of alarming it? But guess that fitting a motion sensor where the fuel tank is mounted could be set off by cats etc, probably a slim chance though. Any other ideas?
A vibration sensor alarm may work, stuck on the tank with double sided tape out of sight.
A tenner or so ex. eBay some with remote control.
 
Last edited:

wildbill

Full Member

Messages
79
i Run on reserve when local and only fill up with enough fuel to do my trip i try to park up with the minimum amount in the tank i have had my locking cap drilled three times.
i just have a emergency cap on now and just keep the locking one for the MOT now
I keep a 20 ltr Jerry can in the garage with diesel in case of emergency's it's the world we live in now sadly :(
bill
 

RV2MAX

Full Member

Messages
222
"I think it is clear what the farmer intended his spiked diesel to do; and that is to damage somebody else's property beyond repair. It is that intent that makes it illegal. "
What you THINK is of no relevance , please find me a piece of legislation that prohibits anyone doing what they like with the fuel in their vehicle tank . Unless you are very bored and have lots of time to waste I would suggest you dont even start . If you do you can start with OATP (Offences Against the Person) Act 1861 :) :)
 

Vanterrier

Full Member

Messages
1,184
I'm worried about this farmer called Spike going around shooting people!

Sheesh!

K 😜
 

WildCamper

Free Member

Messages
34
"I think it is clear what the farmer intended his spiked diesel to do; and that is to damage somebody else's property beyond repair. It is that intent that makes it illegal. "
What you THINK is of no relevance , please find me a piece of legislation that prohibits anyone doing what they like with the fuel in their vehicle tank . Unless you are very bored and have lots of time to waste I would suggest you dont even start . If you do you can start with OATP (Offences Against the Person) Act 1861 :) :)
Intent.
For a clearer example let's assume that someone is stealing the milk from my doorstep.
If I poisoned a bottle of it and left it on the doorstep then somebody died drinking from it do you think I would be let off without charge?
My milk. My doorstep.
 

SquirrellCook

Full Member

Messages
105
So yesterday we put 10 litres in each coach just to make sure the fuel pickups were covered. Checked each one started ok. Murky got a new locking cap, as you can't do much more as access to the filler neck is not that good. Betty got a device that clamps around the neck and covers the cap secured with a padlock. This morning both emptied again. Mucky had the battery door broken as they thought it would give better access.
Betty had the security cap pried up and the cap removed. It's one of the locals!
 

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