Drop n Lithium

Iandsm

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I am thinking about a 120 ah drop in lithium from KS energy. I know there have been several threads about lithium but I was wondering if what is claimed is true that these batteries can simply be dropped in to replace lead acid with no other modifications like uprated fuses, B to B etc. I have an Autosleeper Warwick XL which has the Sergeant EC400 system. I would love to hear from anyone who has just simply dropped on in and without modifying anything. It seems the factory fitted battery charger's profile will be fine for the lithium so I am hopeful. It's not that I do not believe what KS Energy claim but Hearing form someone who has actually dome the deed, at out were would boost my confidence.
 
don’t take this as authoritative but i believe they will work as a drop in but you don’t get the full benefit of the lithium faster charging etc
 
I am thinking about a 120 ah drop in lithium from KS energy. I know there have been several threads about lithium but I was wondering if what is claimed is true that these batteries can simply be dropped in to replace lead acid with no other modifications like uprated fuses, B to B etc. I have an Autosleeper Warwick XL which has the Sergeant EC400 system. I would love to hear from anyone who has just simply dropped on in and without modifying anything. It seems the factory fitted battery charger's profile will be fine for the lithium so I am hopeful. It's not that I do not believe what KS Energy claim but Hearing form someone who has actually dome the deed, at out were would boost my confidence.
I did as you propose. Ian, in mid July 2021, and Neal at KS Energy did the installation on a 'Drop in' basis. However, I was checking the website for any information re a firmware upgrade to stop the BMS going into sleep mode and then tripping the 12v when the fridge called for a teaspoon's leccy, when I saw an updated video revisiting the B2B Charger installation to reduce the fire risk, especially if the alternator is not in its first flush of youth. Since our M/Home was just over 5.5 years old at that stage, I asked David at Wildebus for advice and he fitted an Ablemail AMT12-30 B2B alongside an AMT12-2 Battery Refresher to remove the risk that Neal at KS Energy covered in his updated video. I did email Neal a couple of times but he never replied, and that still rankles.

But I am a very cautious individual who worked in a Bank at the end of the Captain Mainwaring era; the Lecturer who taught me Lending Assessment said the process was akin to an Old Maid pleasuring herself with a candle, and using a condom to minimise the risk ... :D

Steve
 
I did as you propose. Ian, in mid July 2021, and Neal at KS Energy did the installation on a 'Drop in' basis. However, I was checking the website for any information re a firmware upgrade to stop the BMS going into sleep mode and then tripping the 12v when the fridge called for a teaspoon's leccy, when I saw an updated video revisiting the B2B Charger installation to reduce the fire risk, especially if the alternator is not in its first flush of youth. Since our M/Home was just over 5.5 years old at that stage, I asked David at Wildebus for advice and he fitted an Ablemail AMT12-30 B2B alongside an AMT12-2 Battery Refresher to remove the risk that Neal at KS Energy covered in his updated video. I did email Neal a couple of times but he never replied, and that still rankles.

But I am a very cautious individual who worked in a Bank at the end of the Captain Mainwaring era; the Lecturer who taught me Lending Assessment said the process was akin to an Old Maid pleasuring herself with a candle, and using a condom to minimise the risk ... :D

Steve
Thanks for that. Most useful.
 
I did as you propose. Ian, in mid July 2021, and Neal at KS Energy did the installation on a 'Drop in' basis. However, I was checking the website for any information re a firmware upgrade to stop the BMS going into sleep mode and then tripping the 12v when the fridge called for a teaspoon's leccy, when I saw an updated video revisiting the B2B Charger installation to reduce the fire risk, especially if the alternator is not in its first flush of youth. Since our M/Home was just over 5.5 years old at that stage, I asked David at Wildebus for advice and he fitted an Ablemail AMT12-30 B2B alongside an AMT12-2 Battery Refresher to remove the risk that Neal at KS Energy covered in his updated video. I did email Neal a couple of times but he never replied, and that still rankles.

But I am a very cautious individual who worked in a Bank at the end of the Captain Mainwaring era; the Lecturer who taught me Lending Assessment said the process was akin to an Old Maid pleasuring herself with a candle, and using a condom to minimise the risk ... :D

Steve
Thinking again about what you said. What was the fire risk, the BToB or the battery. Also why should the battery go into sleep mode and trip the 12 volt when a small load was placed on it. ? Any light you can shed would be appreciated.
 
Thinking again about what you said. What was the fire risk, the BToB or the battery. Also why should the battery go into sleep mode and trip the 12 volt when a small load was placed on it. ? Any light you can shed would be appreciated.
There was a video by an un-named source that showed an alternator self igniting as the load applied by the Lithium Battery's thirst for power accelerated [I'm not at all technical, so perhaps David at Wildebus might provide the technical terminology], and when I visited Neal at KS Energy, he made mention of the possibility, but dismissed it as theoretical because a standard alternator shouldn't reach the current draw that the 'fire video' portrayed. But he then put out an updated video, effectively saying that the fire risk was possible, but unlikely {IIRC] and ageing alternators would be more vulnerable, but that a B2B fitting would alleviate the risk for those people who were worried [me!].

The BMS on the KS Energy battery is a BT standard application I believe, and David at Wildebus posted a Thread saying that Alpha Batteries had instructed the Chinese Factory to remove them to avoid Alpha having to make firmware upgrades and amendments because of the BMS going comatose when the Lithium SOC reaches 100%. As soon as the fridge or heating calls for the tiny amount of leccy to provide the fridge or heating spark, the Lithium cannot wake up quickly enough, the lights lose power and then then regain it [just about 1 second duration], and the 12v system loses heating and radio settings. Our Truma 6E threw a fault code reporting low current and recommended shutting down electrical equipment to save the Battery [this happened in the below freezing temperatures at Floddon Field, the night before we were to visit David to have the B2B and AMT12-2 fitted!] The 12v settings loss persisted throughout 2022 just about every evening and David suggested that I use extra equipment to try to consume more leccy for as long as possible, to extend the time needed for the Lithium to reach 100% SOC and delay the 'Deep Sleep' problem.

I didn't really have enough electrical demand to make the 'use more power' entirely successful, but David fitted a Victron Inverter for us at the end of September, so we have been able to use this to consume more leccy throughout the day. This, combined with the Scottish Winter reduced daylight/solar and setting the AMT12 to constant [9 seconds in every 10] pulse feed of current to the Starter Battery keeps the Lithium at just below 100% SOC and, touch wood, we haven't had the 12v power cut for almost 3 months

I'm sorry that my lack of technical knowledge prevents a more scientific explanation, but the practical consequences might be more useful! I checked with Truma and with the Solar Panel suppliers who both confirmed that there was no known issue with the 12v momentary power cut with their products, and then David spoke to Alpha about the BMS problems

Steve
 
Couple of comments ....

Many (far too many) Lithium batteries go into a sleep mode when they detect the load on them is at a 'noise' level. This is a situation that is totally unsuitable for a Motorhome/Campervan environment where many vans will have just a small load a lot of the time and owners tend to try to save power rather than having to use power for no reason just to keep the battery alive, like Steve has had to. A daft situation, I know.
This is not limited to KS Energy batteries by any means. Other brands of batteries have the same issue (and spoken to customers of those other brands who have sleepy batteries).
The only supplier I am sure of who is aware of this situation and has taken steps to address this problem is Alpha Batteries, who specifically tell the factories who make their batteries to disable any sleep modes as they know it is not something their customers want - and I can confirm this is the case as the first thing I did when I got a couple of brand new batteries to test from Alpha was to check for the presense of this feature. Right now the Lithiums in my Motorhome have been disconnected from the Habitation system (part of how the Hybrid system works) for over 7 days, with the only load being a BMV-700 (~4mA draw, so noise level) and they are still awake :)

Ref the alternator thing and the wider charging question, there are different points of view on this. My own take on this is that as the charging characteristics of Lithiums Batteries mean they will take a much greater current than a Lead Battery and often for a much longer time (most people swapping from Lead to Lithium tend to also fit a bigger bank and use more power) the charging routes are under a lot more strain.
A charger that the designers built to charge a Lead Battery whose charging pattern means the charger will be running at maybe 25% of its output for a lot of the time will suddenly be running at 100% for hours. Personally I question that is a good idea. If you have a charger failure on the frankly quite poor and limited Sargent Charger, this could result in a replacement cost of maybe 3 times the cost of just buying a better charger to start with, even ignoring the inconvenience of sorting out a replacement Sargent and its fitting.
An alternator on an older van may not have the same thermal protection as a newer one. It may do but it might be worn and if a high-power relay connection (such as a standard D+ controlled relay or a VSR) is used for Split-charging, the much higher charge currents a Lithium Battery can take compared to a Lead Battery can either expose a fault or bring a failure sooner. The use of a B2B, as well as setting up a profile that ensures the correct charging voltages, acts as a current limiter and a bit of a brake on potential alternator overload.
Same consequences as the Mains charger.

Maybe being overcautious, but better safe than sorry.
 
Couple of comments ....

Many (far too many) Lithium batteries go into a sleep mode when they detect the load on them is at a 'noise' level. This is a situation that is totally unsuitable for a Motorhome/Campervan environment where many vans will have just a small load a lot of the time and owners tend to try to save power rather than having to use power for no reason just to keep the battery alive, like Steve has had to. A daft situation, I know.
This is not limited to KS Energy batteries by any means. Other brands of batteries have the same issue (and spoken to customers of those other brands who have sleepy batteries).
The only supplier I am sure of who is aware of this situation and has taken steps to address this problem is Alpha Batteries, who specifically tell the factories who make their batteries to disable any sleep modes as they know it is not something their customers want - and I can confirm this is the case as the first thing I did when I got a couple of brand new batteries to test from Alpha was to check for the presense of this feature. Right now the Lithiums in my Motorhome have been disconnected from the Habitation system (part of how the Hybrid system works) for over 7 days, with the only load being a BMV-700 (~4mA draw, so noise level) and they are still awake :)

Ref the alternator thing and the wider charging question, there are different points of view on this. My own take on this is that as the charging characteristics of Lithiums Batteries mean they will take a much greater current than a Lead Battery and often for a much longer time (most people swapping from Lead to Lithium tend to also fit a bigger bank and use more power) the charging routes are under a lot more strain.
A charger that the designers built to charge a Lead Battery whose charging pattern means the charger will be running at maybe 25% of its output for a lot of the time will suddenly be running at 100% for hours. Personally I question that is a good idea. If you have a charger failure on the frankly quite poor and limited Sargent Charger, this could result in a replacement cost of maybe 3 times the cost of just buying a better charger to start with, even ignoring the inconvenience of sorting out a replacement Sargent and its fitting.
An alternator on an older van may not have the same thermal protection as a newer one. It may do but it might be worn and if a high-power relay connection (such as a standard D+ controlled relay or a VSR) is used for Split-charging, the much higher charge currents a Lithium Battery can take compared to a Lead Battery can either expose a fault or bring a failure sooner. The use of a B2B, as well as setting up a profile that ensures the correct charging voltages, acts as a current limiter and a bit of a brake on potential alternator overload.
Same consequences as the Mains charger.

Maybe being overcautious, but better safe than sorry.
Thanks, David, that's a much better explanation for Ian than I was able to provide!

Steve
 
My sincere thanks to everyone who has takebmb the time and contributed to this thread and lifted the veil of my ignorance. It’s really appreciated. I am able to make a uniformed decision whereas previously I was shooting in the dark. Happy new year.
 
We have a KS Energy lithium in ours. Had it for 2 years now. It has worked happily without any problems. KS say that it is a straight swap.
 
The only supplier I am sure of who is aware of this situation and has taken steps to address this problem is Alpha Batteries, who specifically tell the factories who make their batteries to disable any sleep modes as they know it is not something their customers want
Interesting point about sleep mode. I have had my Relion Li for 5 years and it has never gone into sleep mode but it did come via Alpha. Sleep mode could be disastrous for me because my Efoy fuel cell needs to be powered throughout the winter to self protect itself from frost.
 
We have a KS Energy lithium in ours. Had it for 2 years now. It has worked happily without any problems. KS say that it is a straight swap.
Hi

I am looking into this option, what MH do you have? , I ask this as I can then see what system is fitted to yours and if it’s simular to ours on a 2017 Autosleeper Broadway.
 
Hi

I am looking into this option, what MH do you have? , I ask this as I can then see what system is fitted to yours and if it’s simular to ours on a 2017 Autosleeper Broadway.
We have the KS Energy 120Ah fitted as a 'Drop in' on 14th July 2021 [see Post #6]. The 'Sleep' mode was a nightmare until David of Wildebus fame fitted an Inverter for us on 28th September 2022. Using the Inverter, especially in the Autumn/Winter [but only at home to date?] takes enough out of the Lithium Battery, especially in the Scottish Autumn/Winter with low Solar recharge, to stop the Lithium Battery going into sleep mode and we haven't experienced a 12v settings loss or the dreaded interior lights 1-2 seconds power cut that causes this and is a sure sign that the Lithium has dozed off and failed to wake up quickly enough when a teaspoon's worth of leccy is requested!

Steve
 
I've not used KS Energy Batteries, but Steves experience - not actually just the sleep mode issue, but more so the total apparent lack of response/interest from the battery provider to look into this issue - I find a major turn-off to the product.
 
Agreed !
1 We do not need lithium
2 I do not think our Calira power unit would match.
3 it charges both hab and engine batteies off both alternator and solar.
4 I fitted a pair of 100ah batteries in 2020 and all is good
.
5 only 12Owatt solar panel.
 
After all the advice given on this subject and the only sleep needed is ours not a battery’s, I’ve decided to order a pair of Platinum 100Ah AGMs.

many thanks
 
After all the advice given on this subject and the only sleep needed is ours not a battery’s, I’ve decided to order a pair of Platinum 100Ah AGMs.

many thanks
It’s not all the makes/models that suffer from this sleep thing. My Lifepo4 is just over 3 years now and not had a single problem 👍
 
Re vidio A lithiam battery on a motorhome has the engine battery connected to the alternator first then the lithium , on the vidio their is no engine battery lithiam is connected directly alternator , that would not happen in a motorhome , so how valid is the vidio .?
 

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