Electric Vehicles (EV's)

[TeamRienza]

In my opinion, national security should dictate as wide a mix of vehicle types as possible. The headlong rush to electric concerns me when you consider the ease with which an enemy can cause major harm to the power networks, example Ukraine.
But then when did any British government really understand the potential problems in allowing the run down of infrastructure such as coal, steel, gas, oil, vehicle construction etc.
We are already getting reports of infrastructure and planning for potential future pandemics being run down.

Davy

Ps, I don’t regard this post as political since all parties are guilty. I see it as concern for the security of the country. The primary responsibility of all governments.

 

[Geek]

I'm not sure that the current take-up of EVs can be called a headlong rush. I would suggest that less that 20% is more of a "trickle" than a rush.

This makes sense because public charge points now range between 65p and 80p per KWh (more for fast charge) yet petrol and diesel have dropped well below 20p per KWh.

However, green hydrogen fuel will also depend on the electricity grid being in good shape. At less than 10% efficient, green hydrogen only makes sense if it is made using excess renewable electricity.

That will require significant increases in solar and wind generation capacity, and also a working electric grid. Though in a crisis, hydrogen could use local electric power, I guess.

 

[nabsim]

I'm not sure that the current take-up of EVs can be called a headlong rush. I would suggest that less that 20% is more of a "trickle" than a rush.

This makes sense because public charge points now range between 65p and 80p per KWh (more for fast charge) yet petrol and diesel have dropped well below 20p per KWh.

However, green hydrogen fuel will also depend on the electricity grid being in good shape. At less than 10% efficient, green hydrogen only makes sense if it is made using excess renewable electricity.

That will require significant increases in solar and wind generation capacity, and also a working electric grid. Though in a crisis, hydrogen could use local electric power, I guess.

Nothing stopping them locating hydrogen generating plants near the coast where they can use offshore wind farms with some solar farms on land. If they do it right they can produce a surplus that can go into the grid and be self sufficient.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Makes more sense, essentially it can be made anywhere on the planet that has an energy source, but I don't see it being made in petrol stations, but you never know, tech moves on apace.

DIY even

 

[trevskoda]

Nothing stopping them locating hydrogen generating plants near the coast where they can use offshore wind farms with some solar farms on land. If they do it right they can produce a surplus that can go into the grid and be self sufficient.

It cost much more on electric to extract the hyd gas than if the electric was just used, in phisics there is always a downward loss changing one unit to another, i found this out at Queens university, well in fact i was there painting a water tank on the roof lol.

 

[trevskoda]

Makes more sense, essentially it can be made anywhere on the planet that has an energy source, but I don't see it being made in petrol stations, but you never know, tech moves on apace.

DIY even

I have space in my back garden for lots of them, now i have a money making plan.

 

[Geek]

It cost much more on electric to extract the hyd gas than if the electric was just used, in phisics there is always a downward loss changing one unit to another, i found this out at Queens university, well in fact i was there painting a water tank on the roof lol.

Yes. It is far better to use electricity at the time of production. The issue is that demand varies and generation from solar and wind varies much more.

This means we need to build a really big oversupply of renewables. That in turn means we need a use for excess renewable power generated at times of high production and low demand, and we need a way to store power for times of low production, high demand. Green hydrogen fills that role brilliantly.

 

[TeamRienza]

The headlong rush I was referring to is not by ordinary working people for whom such a purchase is only to be dreamed of.
I was referring to the attitude of environmental groups, just stop oil comes to mind, other one topic lobbies, etc. Refusing to even contemplate shale gas, coal, nuclear wind and solar nimbys and the like much less HS2 which seems to me logical if you want to reduce air and road travel and will still be working in 100 years. GB must be the only European country without a high speed rail network.
The government, though, I suspect the penny is beginning to drop regarding targets and the welfare of the country.
Where was the easy and relatively cheap transition of ice vehicles to LPG at low cost which is like the elephant in the room. I am given to understand that even lpg can come from renewable sources.

Davy

 

[Geek]

Yes, LPG is green and was killed off on the UK for unknown reasons.

To suggest that objecting to stupid schemes like HS2 is objecting to a high speed rail network is missing the point.

Yes, we do need a good public transport system including a good rail network, but HS2 was no part of that. Its business case is broken and it will never be completed. It would be sensible to cancel it today, but that would embarrass politicians. Can't have that, can we?

 

[nabsim]

Not so sure LOG has been killed off in the UK just a lot isn’t available to us.
The yanks have bought up a few sites and are exporting it to the states. You can see the ships leaving Middlesbrough every day

 

[trevskoda]

Yes. It is far better to use electricity at the time of production. The issue is that demand varies and generation from solar and wind varies much more.

This means we need to build a really big oversupply of renewables. That in turn means we need a use for excess renewable power generated at times of high production and low demand, and we need a way to store power for times of low production, high demand. Green hydrogen fills that role brilliantly.

They are thinking of containers filled with batteries and charge outlets for electric cars, these can be charged at point of use or lifted away to charge and then positioned anywhere around towns villages etc, here in Ulster its all pie i the sky from what i see around us.

 

[Geek]

They are thinking of containers filled with batteries and charge outlets for electric cars, these can be charged at point of use or lifted away to charge and then positioned anywhere around towns villages etc, here in Ulster its all pie i the sky from what i see around us.

Charging EVs from batteries is a bit silly, but then again the very idea of EVs is a bit silly. There's an argument that the idea of a private car is a bit silly. But we are where we are.

As far as I can see, most people with EVs charge them at home. Charging at charging stations costs between twice as much and twenty times as much. My next-door neighbours had a huge Audi SUV EV which they hated. Too big and clunky, and difficult to charge at home. Before that they'd had a Tesla (which they liked) and now they have a Kia: I think it's a Niro or something that sounds like that. They seem very pleased with that.

Although they nearly always charge at home, they do make trips that require recharging en route. You can't be waiting nine hours or more to refuel, so those charging stations have to be fast charging. That means supplying a lot of power at once, more than the local grid was designed to provide. I guess that's where battery power comes in. It allows the filling station to trickle-charge itself and fast-charge its customers.

The advantage of hydrogen is that the filling station could generate hydrogen at a rate that was affordable (using off-peak excess renewable power where possible) and store it for when a car comes to refuel.

The nub of the problem is always storage. Solar and wind power are incredibly variable. Just like having solar panels on a motorhome roof, some of the time there is not enough power, some of the time there is far more than you need, and in between, it depends on how many panels you have as to whether there's enough. The nation needs loads more renewable resourves to cover "most of the time", which means there will be a lot of time when there is an excess of energy. That's when costs plummet (or go negative) and you make hydrogen whilst the sun shines.

 

[2cv]

It may be possible to move hydrogen using the mains gas network, but this does raise some problems. https://energypost.eu/blending-hydr...rom,users where electrification is uneconomic.

 

[tonybvi]

Charging EVs from batteries is a bit silly, but then again the very idea of EVs is a bit silly. There's an argument that the idea of a private car is a bit silly. But we are where we are.

As far as I can see, most people with EVs charge them at home. Charging at charging stations costs between twice as much and twenty times as much. My next-door neighbours had a huge Audi SUV EV which they hated. Too big and clunky, and difficult to charge at home. Before that they'd had a Tesla (which they liked) and now they have a Kia: I think it's a Niro or something that sounds like that. They seem very pleased with that.

Although they nearly always charge at home, they do make trips that require recharging en route. You can't be waiting nine hours or more to refuel, so those charging stations have to be fast charging. That means supplying a lot of power at once, more than the local grid was designed to provide. I guess that's where battery power comes in. It allows the filling station to trickle-charge itself and fast-charge its customers.

The advantage of hydrogen is that the filling station could generate hydrogen at a rate that was affordable (using off-peak excess renewable power where possible) and store it for when a car comes to refuel.

The nub of the problem is always storage. Solar and wind power are incredibly variable. Just like having solar panels on a motorhome roof, some of the time there is not enough power, some of the time there is far more than you need, and in between, it depends on how many panels you have as to whether there's enough. The nation needs loads more renewable resourves to cover "most of the time", which means there will be a lot of time when there is an excess of energy. That's when costs plummet (or go negative) and you make hydrogen whilst the sun shines.

I admit I was lucky to get such a good deal but I managed to get free supercharging during my ownership of my Tesla which I bought nearly 4 years ago. So I either charge it at home on a current special EV tariff of 4.5p/kWh or on a supercharger for free. Cheap motoring at its best! So far I have never had to queue at any supercharger locations nor ever taken more than 25mins for a supercharge (10% to 80% battery) - on several occasions I have had to move the car off the charger before I could finish my coffee! Charging above 80% takes considerably longer.

 

[Geek]

You pay for the supercharging up front when you buy a Tesla, though, don't you?

 

[Geek]

It may be possible to move hydrogen using the mains gas network, but this does raise some problems. https://energypost.eu/blending-hydrogen-into-the-gas-network-the-challenges-of-pipeline-fractures-faster-flow-rate-more/#:~:text=To reduce the emissions from,users where electrification is uneconomic.

I remember the time when mains gas was 50% hydrogen. It was an amazing tour de force of organisation and engineering to convert to natural gas, area by area.

 

[tonybvi]

You pay for the supercharging up front when you buy a Tesla, though, don't you?

Not really - arguably you do because of the extortionate price of the Tesla but they stopped offering free supercharging just after I got my car 4 years back. Now not only do you pay the extortionate price for the Tesla (best and nicest car I have ever owned by the way so I am not complaining) but pay for supercharging as well - currently circa 40p/kWh

 

[Geek]

40p isn't such a bad price for charging. Generally, the price round here varies between 65p and 80p.

Diesel is about £1.32 per litre, so that's 13.5p per KWh. Of course with an EV you are buying the power after conversion. In an ICE you have to cover the conversion losses yourself.

 

[gasgas]

Where's 'around here' @Geek ? You've got cheap diesel.
I'm interested how you convert litres of diesel to KWh, could you explain please? That's not a criticism, I am genuinely interested because you make a good economic point in favour of diesel. From what I have read on forums in the last couple of years, people generally have not much idea of the power in petrol / diesel versus the amount of electricity required to equal for example a 150HP ICE.

 

[runnach]

I remember the time when mains gas was 50% hydrogen. It was an amazing tour de force of organisation and engineering to convert to natural gas, area by area.

My dad worked the logistics back in the day converting the UK to natural gas. He worked on the various bases, organising the numerous sectors to be converted. William Press & Son.