Leisure battery choice confusion

[SimonM]

I fitted 4 batteries for several reasons,

1, I could buy them at well under normal selling prices and still can

2, I have the room in the battery box to take them, and the payload too

3, I am able to vent them to the outside easily if required

4, I was once stranded batteryless and if I can help to prevent it I will

5, while we still use the MH very infrequently I want the ability to just go where I want without being unduly concerned about state of charge. I know I won’t be able to convince the chef not to use the microwave at times, so I don’t want to destroy them again so quickly.

Have I got too many? Possibly/probably, but what the heck, if I can I will. If I could afford 4 Lithiums would I? Probably not, as I can buy many more leadacid units for my pennies.

 

[Barge1914]

T

I currently have 4x Banner 95751 100/110ah batteries in my MH. They’re hooked up to 220w of solar, MPPT controller and a B2B.

However, before I added the latter I used to have just a simple controller and used to leave the MH on ehu at home almost permanently.

As a consequence, added to a lot of neglect, I found that all of the cells were extremely low on levels and had plenty of dry plates exposed. Filling them all took rather a lot of water. I wasn’t aware that they needed regular checking, low maintenance not no maintenance. Luckily I did have them breathing to the outsides.

Concerned that I had done damage I removed all of them and took them in to be checked over. 1 was showing 82% capacity and the other 3 were 64-66%. My fault, I cooked them with neglect. I’m assuming that those 3 are pretty much shot - do you agree?

When I was working as purchasing manager for a large motor factor I had access to a large number of battery manufacturers, Bosch, Banner, Platinum, Yuasa. I originally chose Banner not knowing much about what to get. I still don’t.

I think I need to sort out some replacements in the near future as I’m not convinced they’ll last me on a long trip, and I dont want to get stuck. So what to buy? I’m not flush enough to go down the lithium route, so it’ll be lead acid for now.

I’ve come up with some options, but herein lies my confusion retaining the same battery dimensions as my Banners.

Bosch/Varta L3015/LFD90 (both are the same) 90ah, maintenance free, 200 cycles, 4yr warranty, 24kg

Yuasa L36-EFB, 100ah, mf, 200 cycles, 3yr warranty, 24kg

Yuasa L36-AGM, 90ah, mf, 400 cycles, 2yr warranty, 25.6kg

Disregarding the price differences I will still buy at wholesale direct from the manufacturer, I’m assuming the AGM battery should be the better option 400 cycles, but only has a 2Yr warranty. Bosch is 4yr and 200cycles. Yuasa EFB is 200cycles and 3 year warranty.

We do use an inverter to nuke some evening meals, but as my wife still works school hours we don’t get away very often.

I’d appreciate your comments, or alternative suggestions, I can access Exide as well

There are a number of articles available that indicate significant exaggeration of the no. of cycles claimed by manufacturers for AGM batteries. On tests the Yuasa EFB showed up as providing a lot more cycles than claimed. They do need vent pipes although they claim to be very low maintenance.

 

[SimonM]

T



There are a number of articles available that indicate significant exaggeration of the no. of cycles claimed by manufacturers for AGM batteries. On tests the Yuasa EFB showed up as providing a lot more cycles than claimed. They do need vent pipes although they claim to be very low maintenance.

Yes, I’ve read the article a few times by aandncaravanservices and have also found quite a lot of other info too. Quite an eye opener. When I was working I used to sell all the popular brands of batteries - I never knew Platinum were SO bad! I was told by the Banner rep that 95751 were NO maintenance, and not LOW maintenance. I never knew about the Bosch L series for leisure even though we were also Bosch agents. It’s only now from my research looking for batteries for me that I’m coming across so many “need to know” issues. I’m very grateful for the input I’ve received from many more knowledgeable peeps on here.

After much deliberation and dithering I think I’m going to have to plump for the Bosch and ensure I keep a much closer eye on what I’m doing when we use lots of amps in one go. Though I may still have another go at Banner for a goodwill gesture warranty claim. ?

 

[SimonM]

I suppose another issue about leisure batteries is that our customers, predominantly the motor trade all want “as cheap as possible” and “I need it now!” They didn’t know what a lot of you know on here, cheap was the main criteria. Perhaps that’s why we sold so many Platinums ?

 

[Molly 3]

Bosch/varta silver power frame sealed batterys every time.

Eyup trev the yuasa efb is the new bat on the block

 

[nabsim]

Eyup trev the yuasa efb is the new bat on the block

Maybe Baz but they are still testing. They aren’t maintenance free and not suitable in hab area

 

[Admin]

Maybe Baz but they are still testing. They aren’t maintenance free and not suitable in hab area

Yuasa suggests that they are a cheaper OEM option for stop-start cars when manafactures don't want to pay for AGM.

Q. What are the differences between EFB and AGM batteries?
A. EFB batteries have been introduced as a lower tier option to AGM batteries in terms of performance and durability. EFB technology relies on improvements to existing flooded technology through the addition of Carbon additives in the plate manufacturing process. AGM batteries benefit from the inclusion of unique design features not found in wet-flooded batteries. These include glass mat separators, recombinant lid technology and higher pack pressures to facilitate improved cyclic lifespan. AGM batteries are better suited to meeting the demands of higher specification vehicles that include one or more of the following technologies: Start Stop, Regenerative Braking and Passive Boost.

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/agm-efb-explained/

 

[Deleted member 11]

Maybe Baz but they are still testing. They aren’t maintenance free and not suitable in hab area

Neil, what do you mean, why aren't they suitable?

 

[wildebus]

I am guessing that is based on not being sealed? Any open Lead Acid battery can be installed in a living area still but should be vented externally (there should be a vent how onto which a tube can be attached for venting purposes - these tubes are sold seperately)

 

[Deleted member 11]

I am guessing that is based on not being sealed? Any open Lead Acid battery can be installed in a living area still but should be vented externally (there should be a vent how onto which a tube can be attached for venting purposes - these tubes are sold seperately)

Any idea how much hydrogen is given off, in say 24hrs normal use?

 

[nabsim]

Yes sorry wasn’t worded very well. The powerframe battery’s are totally sealed and safe to use inside. Most aren’t as they come from suppliers

 

[wildebus]

Any idea how much hydrogen is given off, in say 24hrs normal use?

As I understand it is tiny unless charging at high voltages and in reality not a major issue. Loads of folk in VW Campers fit open-vent batteries and don't bother with the vent tubes. (I do tend to vent as it completes the job and is recommended)

Here is something with a touch of irony when someone DOES vent their battery as recommended ....
https://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1645137

 

[korky]

I just want to play Devil's advocate here...

I know that there is an article from a non-authoritative source that gives widely disputed information about batteries. This article promotes the power frame batteries and they are a great battery, but they are not the super battery that they are being made out to be.

These batteries are not true deep cycle batteries as they can achieve 200 cycles if only discharged to 50%. Neither of these figures is different from a standard Banner battery. The Banner battery can be maintained to give it a longer service life the LFD90 cannot. A vent pipe for the banner battery costs £4 and just need a small hole drilled through the floor.

For people who want a maintenance-free battery and are not going to discharge past 50%, these are a great option.

When buying these batteries make sure you are buying from a supplier that gives 4 years warranty.

Conclusion

The Varta / Bosch LFD90 batteries are good for people who are not going to take them below 50% discharge. The price is good on these batteries and you can get a 4-year warranty. They do not need ventilation and are from a trusted brand. The Bosch version is also NCC B certified.

The NCC scheme isn't worth the paper it is written on and has been widely discredited.

 

[Admin]

The NCC scheme isn't worth the paper it is written on and has been widely discredited.

As far as I know, the scheme has not been widely discredited by any authoritative source. There is a guy who posts controversial and mostly incorrect data about batteries to get lots of backlinks to his website where he sells his other services. And some forum posts where people still believe that you can judge the power of a battery based on its weight completely ignoring advancements in battery technology like AGM (less acid) plate coatings (like carbon), purity of the lead, Internal frame construction and electrolyte composition.

Having a Bosch battery that is in the NCC scheme does not make it a bad battery.

 

[Deleted member 11]

As I understand it is tiny unless charging at high voltages and in reality not a major issue. Loads of folk in VW Campers fit open-vent batteries and don't bother with the vent tubes. (I do tend to vent as it completes the job and is recommended)

Here is something with a touch of irony when someone DOES vent their battery as recommended ....
https://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1645137

Thanks David, that's what I thought as I have had many vans with open vented batteries mounted under the seats. There seems to be a lot of scare-mongering and false information when it comes to leisure batteries.

 

[RV2MAX]

I wouldn't get that hung up on the warranty thing , as most times its put down to owner abuse , to wriggle out of it , unless its very soon after purchase , and a catastrophic failure .
These are rated close to top RV battery in US , now available in UK https://uk.renogy.com/renogy-deep-cycle-agm-battery-12-volt-100ah/

 

[Admin]

Thanks David, that's what I thought as I have had many vans with open vented batteries mounted under the seats. There seems to be a lot of scare-mongering and false information when it comes to leisure batteries.

The truth is Chris that it depends on lots of factors. The type and size of the batteries, the charge voltage, the air capacity in the van, how much ventilation the van has but most importantly how much the batteries gas. If the batteries need topping up often then they are gassing and producing hydrogen. If this was in a relatively sealed enclosure with other equipment like relays then there could be a potential for an explosion. You would really have to produce a perfect storm to get an explosion, but because it could happen battery manafactures and installers must vent flooded batteries.

If a battery loses just 100ml (6 tablespoons) of fluid that produces 264,000 cm3 (11 moles) of Hydrogen. If this gas is released over six months in a ventilated area then it will just escape through roof vents (Hydrogen is lighter than air). Put a couple of Trojans and a 100A dual charge relay in a sealed box and I think you are taking an unnecessary risk.

 

[nabsim]

They shouldn’t be in a sealed box should they? Isn’t it recommended either outside has area or sealed on hab side, a bit like you would with internal gas locker. Vented to outside?

Almost all things are worked on worse case Chris, that’s not scare mongering it’s part of risk assessment which almost everyone does routinely without even thinking about it.

If you don’t point out a potential risk then you can’t decide if it is okay for you to take or not. I was amazed to find in Del’s van that his battery was mounted directly under his pillows. Is it safe? Well his van was built like that as are probably all of that make and not heard of anyone dying. Would I like it on mine? No.

We are all different thankfully

 

[trevskoda]

My bus came from new with the service battery in front passenger foot well,no vents and wet not sealed.

 

[korky]

As far as I know, the scheme has not been widely discredited by any authoritative source. There is a guy who posts controversial and mostly incorrect data about batteries to get lots of backlinks to his website where he sells his other services. And some forum posts where people still believe that you can judge the power of a battery based on its weight completely ignoring advancements in battery technology like AGM (less acid) plate coatings (like carbon), purity of the lead, Internal frame construction and electrolyte composition.

Having a Bosch battery that is in the NCC scheme does not make it a bad battery.

No of course it doesn't. I've just bought 2 Yuasa EFB's with their sticker on but it means nothing.They claim batteries in the scheme have been independently tested but have failed to provide data to back this up and have admitted to using the data supplied by the manufacturers which in many cases is flawed or plain fibs.I can't comment on the accuracy of some of the data supplied by Alan, but I have met him and a very pleasant and honourable man he is.His work has led to Trading Standards undertaking a lengthy, detailed and ongoing investigation into the vehicle and leisure battery industry, to investigate widespread false claims. I think he deserves a medal for stopping the consumer being ripped off.He has always maintained that the larger brands are not involved in this malarkey but rather the cheaper end of the market.If the NCC are making recommendations to the consumer with no lab results to back it up or worse just spouting what a manufacturer thinks will sound good to a potential buyer, then they are colluding in fraudulent activity.