Perhaps Battery Powered Motorhomes.....

mblinko

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32
I like the idea of electric but for me, the green credentials are overstated. it just that you cannot see the dirt and pollution required to manufacture and run them. i suspect a good old American yank tank has a much greener footprint over its lifetime and at the end it will simply rust away if not melted down. I have to say I'm biased as i'm a petrolhead 🙄
 

RV12FUN

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26
While this has been an interesting read there are some points that are overlooked. There are many EV’s out there with over half a million miles on the clock, something that ice car generally can’t do. Brakes last much longer because of regeneration. Servicing cost is much cheaper and charging at home is much cheaper. As for long distance the vehicle of the future will charge as it drives down the motorway, this technology is here and being tested now. Sorry to say this means more disruption on the motorways while they lay the lines. This argument was had many years ago between the horseman and the new fangled car and look how that has turned out. Don’t forget the mind is like a parachute, no use when it’s closed. 😄👍
 

GeoffL

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463
While this has been an interesting read there are some points that are overlooked. There are many EV’s out there with over half a million miles on the clock, something that ice car generally can’t do. Brakes last much longer because of regeneration. Servicing cost is much cheaper and charging at home is much cheaper. As for long distance the vehicle of the future will charge as it drives down the motorway, this technology is here and being tested now. Sorry to say this means more disruption on the motorways while they lay the lines. This argument was had many years ago between the horseman and the new fangled car and look how that has turned out. Don’t forget the mind is like a parachute, no use when it’s closed. 😄👍
At present, a lot of that seems to be a bit of a pipe dream IMO. Very few EVs can match the longevity of ICEVs. The average mileage for an ICEV lorry is over 100,000 miles a year, or over a million miles in ten years. Some present batteries carry a 150,000 mile / 8 year warranty and there is talk of a Tesla 'million mile' battery that nobody has yet seen -- but even that won't match today's diesels. Notwithstanding that, there just aren't sufficient mineral reserves to convert entirely to lithium-based battery EVs (see post #44), so even with the best will in the World, complete conversion to LiBEVs is impossible. There is also a huge problem about what to do with 'spent' Li batteries -- they still haven't figured out what to do with them (post #30). However, there is a solution (and one that doesn't need motorways to be dug up). Bauxite is one of the most abundant minerals on Earth and hence the raw materials for Al/Air are in plentiful supply. Added to that, the alumina recovered during an anode swap is fully recyclable to recover the aluminium right now (as opposed to maybe some time in the future for lithium), Al/Air is potentially cheaper to run over the expected lifetime of a LiBEV (posts #51 & #52) and has the potential for greater longevity. Charging at home is impossible for a good many people as they don't have off-street parking -- but then charging at home isn't required if you have an Al/Air EV.
 

mblinko

Full Member

Messages
32
While this has been an interesting read there are some points that are overlooked. There are many EV’s out there with over half a million miles on the clock, something that ice car generally can’t do. Brakes last much longer because of regeneration. Servicing cost is much cheaper and charging at home is much cheaper. As for long distance the vehicle of the future will charge as it drives down the motorway, this technology is here and being tested now. Sorry to say this means more disruption on the motorways while they lay the lines. This argument was had many years ago between the horseman and the new fangled car and look how that has turned out. Don’t forget the mind is like a parachute, no use when it’s closed. 😄👍
You can recycle everything about a horse and it’s good for the roses 😁
 

Full Member

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4,574
This is a an interesting piece and reflects my feelings:

BBC News - Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

Colin 🙂🙂🙂
 

GeoffL

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463
when has the BBC ever reported anything honestly??
IMO, the biggest factor that the BBC (and most other EV pundits) left out is that the shift to LiBEVs is massively disadvantageous to the poorest. It's all right the pundits spouting words of "we know best" from their ivory towers with somewhere to charge these things up and enough disposable income to afford the EV premium price. But many of those who live in less salubrious surroundings on modest means with nowhere to plug an EV in won't be able to use them with any reliability and/or won't be able afford the purchase price. There's talk of adding a charging point to each lamp post, but that won't be enough. For example, there is only one lamp post for every 12 houses and an average car ownership of 1.5 cars per household in many terraced streets, and those lamp posts are typically only on one side of the road.

That said, I have a suspicion that part of the agenda around LiBEVs is to reduce traffic by taking personal motoring out of the reach of the less well off; something I suspect it will achieve in spades.
 

RV12FUN

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26
so this is the start and it’s been in talks since 2018. In the future no one will buy a car, everyone will rent and this is a growing trend now. If you work out the full ownership of the vehicle and the fact that most people now change their cars every 3-5 years rental is much cheaper for most models. Most haulage companies rent as it’s more tax efficient. Now the question is have any of you owned and ran an EV as this may change your mind.
 

HurricaneSmith

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972
........................ T hat said, I have a suspicion that part of the agenda around LiBEVs is to reduce traffic by taking personal motoring out of the reach of the less well off; something I suspect it will achieve in spades.
I agree with much of that, but am concerned that if a significant percentage are unable to enjoy personal motoring, they will feel disadvantaged and take out their angst on the property of those who can afford it.

Basically, by solving one problem, will they be creating another.
 

Full Member

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4,574
The development of electric powered heavy vehicles has reached the stage where commercial companies will invest in them.
There's some interesting technical detail in this article:


Colin 🙂🙂🙂
 

Full Member

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16 tonne truck with a 6 tonne payload? 95 mile range? Progress?

It's horses for courses, John.
The specification and environmental credentials of an electrically powered lorry satisfy the requirements of this particular application.
And that's clearly something that Warburtons feel a diesel powered lorry wouldn't be able to achieve.

Colin 🙂🙂🙂
 

johnjjl

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Messages
24
It's horses for courses, John.
The specification and environmental credentials of an electrically powered lorry satisfy the requirements of this particular application.
And that's clearly something that Warburtons feel a diesel powered lorry wouldn't be able to achieve.

Colin 🙂🙂🙂
just wondering what a truck with a 20 tonne payload and 400 mile range would weigh ? What would the impact on our roads, compared to a diesel truck be?
 

Full Member

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just wondering what a truck with a 20 tonne payload and 400 mile range would weigh ? What would the impact on our roads, compared to a diesel truck be?

The enabling technologies for all electricity powered vehicles are in their infancy.
At this stage of the move away from fossil fuel powered vehicles, products will have limitations and will be expensive as development, tooling and distribution costs are recovered. This happens with pretty much all step changes in technology. In the past you've no doubt experienced this effect many times, e.g. corded phones to cordless phones to mobile phones to smart phones. Or filament bulbs to coiled filament bulbs to coiled-coil filament bulbs to fluorescent bulbs to led bulbs. Or 78rpm disc records to 33rpm disc records to spool-to-spool tape to cassette tape to compact disc to solid state storage to streaming. Or the internet......

In 10 or 20 years time we'll be looking back on this transition from fossil to electric powered vehicles and wondering how on earth anyone could have doubted the need or our ability to effect the change.

Colin 🙂🙂🙂
 
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johnjjl

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not against change, or progress. I just think electric vehicles as we know them are maybe an interim measure until we come up with a better solution. Even if battery technology improves dramatically, there remains the problem of charging. the present system of power generation certainly could not cope if we were all electric, and it would take more than 20 years to build sufficient power stations etc
 

GeoffL

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463
16 tonne truck with a 6 tonne payload? 95 mile range? Progress?
TBH, it meets very specific criteria in about the only circumstances where it makes any fiscal sense. It's to be used for short distance, 'last leg' deliveries into a city; from Enfield, which is outside the London ULEZ, into inner London, a trip of 12 .. 15 miles into a city with strict emissions legislation. That said, it's a 16 tonner with about the same payload as a 10 tonne diesel truck and that additional mass is going to mean it produces more pollution than the ICEV equivalent.

Edited to add: From the article, it seems that Warburton haven't bought this vehicle; they have it under a contract for the warranty period of 10 years. The battery is guaranteed for ten years or delivery of 250 MW, which Warburton's engineers have calculated won't be exceeded during the contract period.

It would be in Renault's interest for a high-profile company like Warburton to be their 'thin end of the wedge' and so I wouldn't be surprised if this was a loss leader for Renault and perhaps the deal for others won't be as attractive...
 
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johnjjl

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24
If a 44 tonne electric truck were to appear, and had a 400 mile range, what would its unladen weight be do you suppose?
 

GeoffL

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463
The enabling technologies for all electricity powered vehicles are in their infancy.
At this stage of the move away from fossil fuel powered vehicles, products will have limitations and will be expensive as development, tooling and distribution costs are recovered. This happens with pretty much all step changes in technology. In the past you've no doubt experienced this effect many times, e.g. corded phones to cordless phones to mobile phones to smart phones. Or filament bulbs to coiled filament bulbs to coiled-coil filament bulbs to fluorescent bulbs to led bulbs. Or 78rpm disc records to 33rpm disc records to spool-to-spool tape to cassette tape to compact disc to solid state storage to streaming. Or the internet......

In 10 or 20 years time we'll be looking back on this transition from fossil to electric powered vehicles and wondering how on earth anyone could have doubted the need or our ability to effect the change.

Colin 🙂🙂🙂
Unlike LiBEVs, the majority of those were improvements that were adopted by the public on their own merits because they offered clear benefits. LiBEVs are being forced on the public, mostly against their will. At best the move to LiBEVs is step that will go the way of Betamax leaving those who were forced to buy them out in the cold. Worse is that they are impractical for those who have no off-street parking or who have other factors that prevent them charging EVs at home. An enforced change to LiBEVs is thus likely to make personal motoring the exclusive preserve of the privileged, massively to the detriment of the less well off. OTOH, I wouldn't have the same objection to giving people a free choice so that they can choose EVs where they make sense while those for who EV's don't can continue to use something more appropriate to their needs.

In 10 years time I suspect we'll look back on those halcyon days when the national grid could actually cope with demand and in 20 years I suspect we'll look back and wonder how anyone could have got it so wrong by thinking forcing everyone to have LiBEVs was a good idea!
 

PopesOnTour

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Messages
4
This is an interesting conversation, but so much of the information provided and examples given are out of date. You need to look at the realities of current EV's and not those that were made 5 or 10 years ago.

Regarding trucks, the Tesla Semi is a Class 8 day-cab semi which meets the weight requirements. It has the same load carrying capacity as other Class 8 diesel semi's. But, can accelerate from 0-60mph in 20 seconds, which aids with roundabouts and getting onto motorways. It will maintain a speed of 60mph up a 5% incline, where diesel trucks only manage 45mph, better for traffic flow. The largest battery version has a range of 600miles, verified in real world conditions hauling batteries from the Giga-factory in Arizona to the car assembly plant in Fremont. When charging it adds 400 miles of range in 30 minutes. This is partly due to the fact that it doesn't use 1 supercharger, but can plug into 4 chargers.

EV batteries are developing faster than mobile phones. The current Nissan Leaf 60kWhr battery pack fits into the first Nissan Leaf built, and gives 4 times the range from a battery only 3 times the power capacity. Replacement battery costs are dropping and will continue to fall. Local garages are starting to offer battery swaps using battery packs from wrecked vehicles. The used battery pack is then being sold on by the garage to be used as storage for renewable installations.

Increasingly the design of batteries is closer to the requirements of EV's. The new tabless design will generate small amounts of heat during charging or discharging, removing the need for battery cooling. It is also largely recyclable. It provides increased storage density (range increase of 16%) and costs 14% less per kWhr. This is bordering on the level required to make EV's the same cost as fossil fuel cars.

Battery life is as yet still unknown. Many manufacturers offer an 8 year/100,000 mile range. Tesla, with a lot more real world experience changed this to 8yrs unlimited mileage.

Charging, Hyundai have launched the Ioniq5 which charges from 10% to 80% in 18 minutes with a 298 mile range. A sub-5 minute charge will give at least 60 miles range. You need to understand that with an EV, you don't discharge the battery fully and don't frequently charge it fully. So whilst a Tesla Model S attached to a supercharger will take 6 hours to charge, I never spent more than 30 minutes at a supercharger. This was at a time that I was doing 27k miles a year for business. Now I have a Nissan Leaf as I rarely drive out of Somerset, so the range of 110 miles (real world range) is fine. I drive about 120 miles a week currently (6-7K a year) and charge the car twice a week. I leave it connected to the charger whenever at home, as the app allows the car to pre-heat before driving. For most people in the UK, an EV with a range of 250+ miles would only need to be charged once a week, not every day. So even people in blocks of flats can own EV's without issue. People who do in excess of 20k miles per year will require a charger at home.

Maybe reading https://electrek.co/ or https://insideevs.com/ would bring you more up to date with current EV status.
 

johnjjl

Full Member

Messages
24
This is an interesting conversation, but so much of the information provided and examples given are out of date. You need to look at the realities of current EV's and not those that were made 5 or 10 years ago.

Regarding trucks, the Tesla Semi is a Class 8 day-cab semi which meets the weight requirements. It has the same load carrying capacity as other Class 8 diesel semi's. But, can accelerate from 0-60mph in 20 seconds, which aids with roundabouts and getting onto motorways. It will maintain a speed of 60mph up a 5% incline, where diesel trucks only manage 45mph, better for traffic flow. The largest battery version has a range of 600miles, verified in real world conditions hauling batteries from the Giga-factory in Arizona to the car assembly plant in Fremont. When charging it adds 400 miles of range in 30 minutes. This is partly due to the fact that it doesn't use 1 supercharger, but can plug into 4 chargers.

EV batteries are developing faster than mobile phones. The current Nissan Leaf 60kWhr battery pack fits into the first Nissan Leaf built, and gives 4 times the range from a battery only 3 times the power capacity. Replacement battery costs are dropping and will continue to fall. Local garages are starting to offer battery swaps using battery packs from wrecked vehicles. The used battery pack is then being sold on by the garage to be used as storage for renewable installations.

Increasingly the design of batteries is closer to the requirements of EV's. The new tabless design will generate small amounts of heat during charging or discharging, removing the need for battery cooling. It is also largely recyclable. It provides increased storage density (range increase of 16%) and costs 14% less per kWhr. This is bordering on the level required to make EV's the same cost as fossil fuel cars.

Battery life is as yet still unknown. Many manufacturers offer an 8 year/100,000 mile range. Tesla, with a lot more real world experience changed this to 8yrs unlimited mileage.

Charging, Hyundai have launched the Ioniq5 which charges from 10% to 80% in 18 minutes with a 298 mile range. A sub-5 minute charge will give at least 60 miles range. You need to understand that with an EV, you don't discharge the battery fully and don't frequently charge it fully. So whilst a Tesla Model S attached to a supercharger will take 6 hours to charge, I never spent more than 30 minutes at a supercharger. This was at a time that I was doing 27k miles a year for business. Now I have a Nissan Leaf as I rarely drive out of Somerset, so the range of 110 miles (real world range) is fine. I drive about 120 miles a week currently (6-7K a year) and charge the car twice a week. I leave it connected to the charger whenever at home, as the app allows the car to pre-heat before driving. For most people in the UK, an EV with a range of 250+ miles would only need to be charged once a week, not every day. So even people in blocks of flats can own EV's without issue. People who do in excess of 20k miles per year will require a charger at home.

Maybe reading https://electrek.co/ or https://insideevs.com/ would bring you more up to date with current EV status.
are the american trucks you quote under 44 tonnes gvw ?
 
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