Electric cars, Emperor's new clothes???

[Ardachaidh]

Has anybody heard of global warming? Transport accounts for over 20% of GHG emissions and has not been decreasing while other sectors have. The ICE is dirty polluting and wasteful of energy. Emissions from vehicles are responsible for hundreds of thousands of premature deaths worldwide. Recovering oil is extremely damaging to the environment. Governments have bowed down before the car lobby and further damaged the environment by building more and more roads to cater for more and more and bigger and bigger vehicles when proper investment in public transport would be much more beneficial. The cost of congestion caused by too many vehicles on the road runs into hundreds of millions. People who rely on cars for simple short journeys instead of walking or cycling are more likely to be damaging their health through lack of fitness.

I have an electric car and am very pleased with it. We mainly do fairly short journeys, (but we also walk and cycle a lot) and have done a couple of longer ones which required just a little more planning than usual. When we charge it at home the power is pollution free as we have PV panels - and here in Scotland most charge points are free.

EV's may not be the long-term answer, although technology is improving all the time, and maybe hydrogen is a better long-term solution but if you are concerned about global warming then EV is the way to go, if you can.

 

[Vanterrier]

Well quentinsf can obviously see the kings new clothes ok and is obviously convinced and it suits his driving needs by the sound of it so well done him ( honestly, well done) however I wonder what the cost of having a 7KW charger on for seven hours regularly are? Is that factored into the costs? I do around 12000 miles p.a. in my car ( diesel XTrail) and another 12000 in the van so my needs are different. I would like to see an honest costing for my needs...
I remain unconvinced. And hopeful of an alternative to EV's...
K

 

[2cv]

It would seem that if we want cars of any sort, there are consequences both for the environment and others.

 

[Deleted member 5608]

Well quentinsf can obviously see the kings new clothes ok and is obviously convinced and it suits his driving needs by the sound of it so well done him ( honestly, well done) however I wonder what the cost of having a 7KW charger on for seven hours regularly are? Is that factored into the costs? I do around 12000 miles p.a. in my car ( diesel XTrail) and another 12000 in the van so my needs are different. I would like to see an honest costing for my needs...
I remain unconvinced. And hopeful of an alternative to EV's...
K

Well, 7kW x 7hrs = 49 kWh. I pay about 13p/kWh, so that's £6.37, and 49kWh, depending on the vehicle, would probably take you about 210 miles, giving 3p/mile. (It would be half that on Economy 7)

Diesels typically come in at around 13p/mile, I think, so you'd save around £1200/year in fuel costs, plus, at present, the cost of your road tax, congestion charges (if you pay them) etc. Electric cars also tend to last well (few thermal stresses and enormously fewer moving parts) and are often a fair bit cheaper to service, though that depends a lot on the manufacturer.

Now, at present, it might take quite a few years at that rate to cover the difference between your XTrail and an electric equivalent. Simple financial gain isn't, for most people, the main reason for making the switch. (In my case, I'm not so much an eco-warrior as a gadget enthusiast. But if you do want to consider the more important reasons for abandoning diesel, then I recommend Tim Smedley's recent book, "Clearing the Air"!)

Remember, though, I do still also own a VW diesel. But that's for the specific needs of campervanning. I wouldn't want one as my daily driver any more.

 

[Ardachaidh]

Home charging costs are around 4p per mile. Public non-free is about double that. Still much cheaper than diesel. Plus, servicing costs will be lower. If you have PV panels on your roof, and produce more than you use then charging is virtually free. Come to Scotland and many public chargers are free.

I know there's a "dirty secret" re batteries, it's deplorable and there's no excuse for that. But as I said earlier, there are tens of thousands of premature deaths directly attributable to vehicle emissions, plus chronic respiratory and other complaints affecting millions. The fact is that petrol and diesel powered vehicles will have to be phased out to help prevent, or rather, mitigate catastrophic global warming and to improve human health. There isn't really any debate to be had about that - unless you're Trump.

The debate is about the future of transport and its power source - whether electric, hydrogen or something else. We can't go on driving more and more vehicles, building more and more roads and favouring wasteful private transport over public transport. Unfortunately there are few, if any, politicians willing to contemplate such a step-change. They still haven't taken global warming seriously.

 

[Asterix]

What I would really like to know is where they are going to get all the electricity from in the first place. The way they are going every inch of the sea bed will have a windmill on it. You will then need thousands of recharging points. The only bit they haven’t really considered is fuel tax. They make millions out of fuel tax so where are they going to get the income from. Perhaps they will have a meter in each car / lorry / bus and you will be charged per mile.

There's plenty of electric at the moment and for the foreseeable future,it's purely a matter of smoothing out supply and demand which electric cars will help to do.

 

[time4t]

These debates about car pollution etc., are all very interesting to read, but you only here what the government wants you to here, I have done a lot of research over the past couple of years & something that I find odd, is that quite often I'll read a newly published report from say the society of motor engineers or a similar academic body but, 2/3 weeks later it's been removed.!

Now I don't really believe in conspiracy theories but sometimes it seems the only explanation that fits.

So I'll give you one fact that is hard to track down now.
The DPF is actually letting particles through that have been proven to be the only ones that the body can't deal with, it's the fact that we can't see them that makes us believe the DPF bullshit!

Phill

 

[Deleted member 144]

What Emissions, ?

 

[Deleted member 5608]

The DPF is actually letting particles through that have been proven to be the only ones that the body can't deal with, it's the fact that we can't see them that makes us believe the DPF bullshit!

That's almost true, but to be fair, that fact wasn't known when they were introduced.

It was known that all small particulates are harmful, so filters and regulations were introduced to reduce the volume of PM10 (particles smaller than 10 um) and PM2.5 (smaller than 2.5um). This helped, but DPFs work by burning the soot particles at very high temperatures, producing even smaller particles which can actually enter the bloodstream, rather than just damaging the lungs. This makes them more damaging, even though the volume has been reduced.

So there are *some* aspects of DPFs which arguably do more harm than good. But that doesn't mean that diesels are good without them! No conspiracies here; this stuff is all publicly available and, again, Tim Smedley's book is a good source. The Society of Automotive Engineers, BTW, is hardly an unbiased body, and not an academic one

It's just the progress of science over the last 20 years that has discovered that even DPFs don't, sadly, turn diesels into clean power sources. It would be nice if they did!

 

[Vanterrier]

Is there, or will there be a second hand EV market? Some of us will never afford a new vehicle and I wonder how good a buy a six or seven year old EV would be? ( thats the kind of age car I normally buy and keep for three or four years)
K

 

[Millie Master]

Is there, or will there be a second hand EV market? Some of us will never afford a new vehicle and I wonder how good a buy a six or seven year old EV would be? ( thats the kind of age car I normally buy and keep for three or four years)
K

I don't now about that age, but normally I buy ex lease rental very low mileage guaranteed servicing cars when they are 3 years old and it is amazing what deals can be found.

Currently I am searching AutoTrader looking for a petrol/electric hybrid and have found quite a few excellent cars, there are also some good Nissan Leafs full time electric cars that are going for very reasonable money.

My existing daily driver is a 2013 BMW 116D that I purchased 3 years ago for just £11k when it had 19,500 miles on the clock, it now has 34,000 and is overall truly excellent apart from the damnably annoying mpg claims made by BMW...... they claim 83mpg overall when in truth it is only approx. 50!!!!

 

[Deleted member 5608]

Is there, or will there be a second hand EV market? Some of us will never afford a new vehicle and I wonder how good a buy a six or seven year old EV would be? ( thats the kind of age car I normally buy and keep for three or four years)
K

Very wise! Yes, though there aren't many that are six or seven years old yet.

I just did a quick search on Autotrader for used Nissan Leafs and a 2014/15 one comes in at about £8K. BMW i3s start around £13K. Renault Zoes can be quite cheap, but note that on some of them the battery is leased rather than owned, so there's a monthly charge for that (in exchange for a certain amount of peace of mind).

By modern electric car standards, all of these have a pretty limited range, and that might be an issue it it were your main car. But they would make brilliant second cars for almost anyone.

 

[GeoffL]

[...]
* There are currently more public charging points in the UK than there are petrol stations. And, note, that is *public* charging points; it doesn't take account of the much larger number attached to people's houses. However, it is worth taking with a big pinch of salt, because most of them are slow (7kw or lower), but those are still important. In somewhere like a National Trust car park or a hotel, it's much more important to have lots of cheap slow chargers than one expensive fast one.

Also noteworthy is that each charging point is counted (so a bank of six charging points counts as six), while each pump in a petrol station isn't (so six pumps in one filling station only counts as one). Additionally, each pump can service one vehicle every five minutes or so while each EV takes up a charging point for much longer.

For me, the really interesting stuff is in the V2G (vehicle to grid) arena, where the car can provide power back to the house (or grid). That's a whole separate topic, but there are trials currently underway in many areas. The opportunities for storing renewable energy in this vast, distributed battery, spread around the country, and then using it to avoid having to build power stations which only serve to supply peak loads is, for me, one of the most exciting aspects of this.

This seems to be a fantastic way of providing resilience for renewable electricity. Not only V2G but also home batteries. In South Australia, they have pilot schemes where home solar power systems charge home batteries that are connected to the grid and can be used by the energy companies to buffer the grid when necessary. Making energy from your own battery storage available to power companies for more than it costs to recharge from the grid (like in SA) seems a win/win situation to me.

 

[TeamRienza]

I don't now about that age, but normally I buy ex lease rental very low mileage guaranteed servicing cars when they are 3 years old and it is amazing what deals can be found.

I would agree with this method of purchase. I have bought a few cars that I reckon have been pcp style financed by the original owners. Presumably in time there will be a surfeit of electric vehicles given the very high proportion of cars bought through this system.
There may even be a case of looking at the pcp lease scheme over the next 5 to 10 years as a way of insulating your self against future developments.

Davy

 

[trevskoda]

No one here has said that electric battery disposal at end of life and the cars are almost 50% more dirty and energy used,so more polution and never mind have the seabed wrecked to get chems for making new batts.

 

[bobj808]

I've never understood why diesel cars aren't banned from city centres which seem to be the most polluted /populated (not necessarily residents) areas. If electric vehicles really are so cheap to run then fleets of taxis and buses could transport people about the centres at much cheaper prices than at present. I was an Edinburgh city centre sergeant for a couple of years from 1987 and back then Princes St area was shocking - old bangers of buses belching out fumes, black taxis allowed to cruise 24 hours a day looking for fares, chock a block with cars - all our eyes ran and nipped. What opportunities all these not so wise politicians and councillors have consistently missed over the years. Problem with Edinburgh is the council need the motoring revenues it raises through a brutal regime of parking enforcement - their latest hare brained idea is to introduce bus lane restrictions from 7am to 7pm seven days a week - their excuse is to ease congestion, but anyone with a noodle of common sense will be able to work out that it is to raise money from offenders daring to enter a bus lane. Also if they would stop creating congestion by playing about with the timing of the traffic lights (like happened in London) it may ease things a bit. I don't know about other cities, but Edinburgh seems to need cars to come in so they can raise revenue.

 

[nabsim]

It must be something we are missing Bob as I keep saying a similar thing except I would say ban ALL cars from city’s. I wonder if it’s because pushing ev’ places the main burden on the individual rather than government, council, public transport?

i have noticed hybrid busses (complete with WiFi) running in Hull this time round. Seems they are commonplace but I hadn’t noticed before. I still can’t understand why hybrids aren’t the interim solution though rather than full ev.

 

[Deleted member 5608]

I've never understood why diesel cars aren't banned from city centres which seem to be the most polluted /populated (not necessarily residents) areas. If electric vehicles really are so cheap to run then fleets of taxis and buses could transport people about the centres at much cheaper prices than at present.

On the ‘Fully Charged Show’ YouTube channel (highly recommended), Robert Llewellyn sometimes makes fun of the fact that a UK city (Leicester, perhaps?) proudly announced that they were introducing their first electric bus. That same week, Shenzhen replaced all 14,000 of its buses with electric ones.

I think part of the problem is that reducing pollution does actually save a huge amount of money, enough to offset the costs of most initiatives, but it saves it in the healthcare and social care sector, and often several years later. That’s a different budget pot, and government funding probably isn’t joined-up enough to connect the two.

 

[trevskoda]

They had electric trams in belfast and ran out to glengormley when i were a nipper,all gone in sixties,bring them back as they can run all day without a charge,though battery could be fitted to move them from lines to other sectors.

 

[wildebus]

I have been looking at electric cars for some time but I simply can't my head around the low mileages possible on a charge which is why I am also looking at various hybrids and for me the Mitsubishi Outlander Petrol/Electric appears to tick a lot of my boxes including zero VED and some quite to very good fuel consumption figures once the driving technique has been learnt,it is also a Mitsubishi and I know from past experiences how superbly engineered their cars are.

The outlander PHEV meant to be very good. Was there a change in the road tax/VED rules in April '17 which meant only 100% electric cars were zero VED? (If if buying used registered before that you would be ok).

Ignoring the high buy price, this all-electric full-sized motorhome looks good and had an amazing range....