Electric cars, Emperor's new clothes???

In the meantime, EVs are proving not to be the answer because the particulates they emit are as bad as from modern-day petrol-powered vehicles and almost as bad as from modern diesels, which are worse only becase of the small amount of NOx from Euro 6 and 6d. The particulates come from wear of tyres, roads and brakes -- even when regenerative braking, EVs still produce particulates from tyre and road wear and need to use 'standad' friction braking each time they come to a complete standstill.

Here endeth the sermon!

Not sure how regenerative braking cause particulates,it's just a slowing electric motor acting as a generator,brakes are only needed to come to a full stop,so minimal heat and friction produced.
I doubt there's a huge difference in tyre particulates than with an ice vehicle,but the lifespan of an EV is likely to be much longer than ice vehicles with software updates and new batteries to keep them up to date.
 
I feel certain that most of the measures taken by the excellent BMW company in the design and manufactur of their i3 and i8 models such as their brilliant regenerative braking systems will be fed downards to all future models.
 
Not sure how regenerative braking cause particulates,it's just a slowing electric motor acting as a generator,brakes are only needed to come to a full stop,so minimal heat and friction produced.
I doubt there's a huge difference in tyre particulates than with an ice vehicle,but the lifespan of an EV is likely to be much longer than ice vehicles with software updates and new batteries to keep them up to date.
Regenerative braking relies on friction -- between the road and tyre. Basic physics (Newton's first law of motion) means that some force must act on the vehicle for any form of acceleration/deceleration/cornering to occur. These forces are (ultimately) applied to the point(s) of contact between the vehicle and its surroundings (i.e. between the tyres and the road) both the tyres and road surface experience wear and tiny particles of rubber, bitumen etc. are scrubbed off these surfaces and released into the atmosphere. This is the particulate pollution from all road vehicles. Even countering the force of gravity while climbing or decending a hill causes particulates. The reason there is a difference between EVs and ICEVs is because (generally -- and I accept there are exceptions) EV are heavier and so have more mass to accelerate, resulting in increased wear/particulates. A study I cited on one of Phil's other forums at least suggests that particulates from EVs are at least as bad and probably worse than those from comparable ICEVs.

I hope you're correct wrt vehicle lifespan. However, planned obsolescence and the consequences of Moore's Law mean that electronics tend to have a much shorter life than mechanical products. Consumers want the latest and greatest -- and I suspect that might be even more so with EVs in the short term: at least until private ownership is no longer a thing. As new battery technology comes on-stream, I wonder whether EVs from the previous generation will be able to accept the new technology in a way that makes economic sense -- particularly if, like one company featured on YT, the manufacturers go out of their way to ensure the product cannot be updated or even economically repaired.
 
Not sure how regenerative braking cause particulates,it's just a slowing electric motor acting as a generator,brakes are only needed to come to a full stop,so minimal heat and friction produced.
I doubt there's a huge difference in tyre particulates than with an ice vehicle...

Yes, EVs are better for particulates. They do still generate tyre and road dust, but much less from the brakes and, it goes without saying, none from the exhaust pipe! There is an argument that EVs are a bit heavier and so generate more tyre dust when braking, which is widely debated and may be true, but the thing about particulates (unlike greenhouse gases) is that it matters where you generate them, because they don't generally travel very far. EVs generate no particulates at all when they're stationary waiting for the lights and almost none in slow-moving traffic around houses, schools, city centres. If the weight difference should turn out to be enough to offset the tailpipe emissions overall, it will at least be happening chiefly on fast, out-of-town roads where it is much less harmful.

Almost every argument against electric vehicles from an environmental point of view, it seems to me, goes something like this: "But EVs still have problem X", whether problem X is "they still cause CO2 emissions" or "they take energy to manufacture" or "they eventually wear out and have to be recycled" or "some of their materials need to be dug out of the ground" or "they still generate particulates" or whatever. And yes, amazingly, EVs are not perfect, angelic beings which solve all the world's problems! But they are so much better than internal combustion vehicles on almost all of these 'problem Xs' that it would be tragic for people to write them off just because they aren't perfect. :)

There are good reasons why they're not right for everybody yet. They're more expensive, for a year or two, anyway. If you live in a city with no off-street parking they can be much harder to charge. If you regularly drive more than 200 miles without stopping, they are less convenient. You can't get them in every form factor yet. And if you have a perfectly good car at present, of course, you shouldn't throw it away!

But if you're buying a new (or newish car), I'd definitely recommend thinking seriously about an electric one if you can afford it. They're great fun, and you can start learning about the future. Because if your next car isn't electric, I bet you that the one after that almost certainly will be! :)
 
....and tiny particles of rubber, bitumen etc. are scrubbed off these surfaces and released into the atmosphere. This is the particulate pollution from all road vehicles.

You're talking like we must be exchanging tyres and resurfacing motorways on a weekly basis.

I just don't see this as anywhere near the problem it's being made out to be.
 
Yes, EVs are better for particulates. They do still generate tyre and road dust, but much less from the brakes and, it goes without saying, none from the exhaust pipe! There is an argument that EVs are a bit heavier and so generate more tyre dust when braking, which is widely debated and may be true, but the thing about particulates (unlike greenhouse gases) is that it matters where you generate them, because they don't generally travel very far. EVs generate no particulates at all when they're stationary waiting for the lights and almost none in slow-moving traffic around houses, schools, city centres. If the weight difference should turn out to be enough to offset the tailpipe emissions overall, it will at least be happening chiefly on fast, out-of-town roads where it is much less harmful.

Almost every argument against electric vehicles from an environmental point of view, it seems to me, goes something like this: "But EVs still have problem X", whether problem X is "they still cause CO2 emissions" or "they take energy to manufacture" or "they eventually wear out and have to be recycled" or "some of their materials need to be dug out of the ground" or "they still generate particulates" or whatever. And yes, amazingly, EVs are not perfect, angelic beings which solve all the world's problems! But they are so much better than internal combustion vehicles on almost all of these 'problem Xs' that it would be tragic for people to write them off just because they aren't perfect. :)

There are good reasons why they're not right for everybody yet. They're more expensive, for a year or two, anyway. If you live in a city with no off-street parking they can be much harder to charge. If you regularly drive more than 200 miles without stopping, they are less convenient. You can't get them in every form factor yet. And if you have a perfectly good car at present, of course, you shouldn't throw it away!

But if you're buying a new (or newish car), I'd definitely recommend thinking seriously about an electric one if you can afford it. They're great fun, and you can start learning about the future. Because if your next car isn't electric, I bet you that the one after that almost certainly will be! :)
As a car should last at least 20 years how long do you think i have left to live,id be over 80 for second car. (y)
 
Well, quelle surprise, there's a few climate deniers alive and well. When even the BBC has stopped giving air time to deniers maybe it's time to get real, as the graph linked by In H above shows. Instead of arguing dubious "whataboutery" and selective partial statistics how about reading a book which spells out in non-emotional detail just how bad it is: "The Uninhabitable Earth" by David Wallace-Wells.

But even if global warming wasn't happening the fact that air pollution from burning fossil fuels causes millions of premature deaths worldwide as well as chronic illness, seems to me sufficient reason to stop.

Anyway, that's my last on this subject. If people insist on a flat earth in opposition to the vast majority of scientific opinion and like Nigel Lawson continue to deny then that's their prerogative to live a myth. But a dangerous myth, because if the deniers are wrong, as I and 97% of climate scientists believe, then the consequences for humans will be very grim. As Mr Spock would have said, "It's life, Jim, but not as we've known it."
 
Well, quelle surprise, there's a few climate deniers alive and well. [...]
Typical alarmist -- all rhetoric and no real science. The IPCC have established correlation between global warming and atmospheric CO2 concentration but they haven't established causality. BTW, over 90% of those IPCC 'climate scientists' aren't actually climate scientists and they even count administrators in their number; 'up-credentialing' them for the purpose of their agenda. A lot of people have a lot of money riding on persuading everyone that anthropogenic climate change is real. Anyone who opposes this has a hard job getting funding these days and is likely ridiculed and/or their work repressed. It's always been that way, just look what happened to Gallileo, Newton, Darwin, et al. https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/02/global-warming-follow-money-henry-payne/

Bottom line: atmospheric CO2 concentration is dependent upon temperature fluctuations. Ice cores etc. show that CO2 concentration lags seawater temperature. There is a demonstrable hypothesis to support the mechanism behind this (solubility of CO2 decreasing with increasing water temperature) and so it's impossible for CO2 from human activity to cause global warming.

You're talking like we must be exchanging tyres and resurfacing motorways on a weekly basis.

I just don't see this as anywhere near the problem it's being made out to be.
ISTR we've already had this conversation over on WC, so I guess that you just don't see eye-to-eye with the Institute of Engineering and Technology. (https://eandt.theiet.org/content/ar...ic-cars-could-be-worse-than-from-diesel-ones/) (and, yes, the article does assume zero emissions from EV brake wear!)
 
I guess that you just don't see eye-to-eye with the Institute of Engineering and Technology. (https://eandt.theiet.org/content/ar...ic-cars-could-be-worse-than-from-diesel-ones/) (and, yes, the article does assume zero emissions from EV brake wear!)

It’s also worth noting that Prof Harrison has amended his original comments to say things may be a bit more complex than first thought, and to emphasise that it wasn’t his own research, but based on another paper. That paper has been sufficiently controversial that the University of Edinburgh, originally listed as a hosting institution for the research, has asked for their name to be removed from it, since it wasn’t really conducted there. Also, one of its authors has had to declare a possible conflict of interest (though, looking at the company concerned, I doubt that was a significant issue). And Prof Harrison admitted that the assumption that electric cars were necessarily heavier may be an over-simplification.

But let’s assume that they are right, which they may well be, that PM2.5 and PM10 don’t go down very much in the short term. A switch to EVs would still bring about huge reductions in PM1 (which, as discussed above, are proving to be the more harmful), and better geographic distribution of the remaining particulates. Also of NOx, and CO2 and O3, which some of us still believe contribute significantly to climate change :)
 
It’s also worth noting that Prof Harrison has amended his original comments to say things may be a bit more complex than first thought, [...]
It's worth noting that Prof Harrison's update was mainly to clarify that a criticism originally levelled at the source document wasn't valid. A claim was made that the conclusions were invalid because EVs use regenerative braking. However, Prof Harrison pointed out that the original authors had conservatively estimated zero emissions from brake wear. The "additional complexity" arises because some EVs are lighter than some ICEVs. For example, someone switching from an ICEV to an equivalent EV would likely result in increased particulates while downsizing from a large ICEV to a 'city-size' EV would likely result in a reduction of particulates.

Anyway, for completeness, the full text of the update follow:
“I am pleased to set the record straight on this issue. I made it clear when talking to E&T that I was basing my comments on a paper by VRJH Timmers and PAJ Achten, published recently in the journal Atmospheric Environment, ‘Non-exhaust PM emissions from electric vehicles’. Timmers and Achten report the weight of a number of electric vehicles in comparison with their internal combustion engine equivalent. In all cases, the weight of the electric vehicle was greater, the range being from 14.6 per cent to 28.7 per cent heavier. Non-exhaust emissions from road vehicles arise from brake wear, tyre and road surface wear, and resuspension of road surface dusts. All are in general terms enhanced by increased vehicle weight. Timmers and Achten acknowledge the benefits of regenerative brakes on electric vehicles and made a conservative estimate of zero brake-wear emissions for electric vehicles. Hence, their claim that electric vehicle particulate matter emissions are comparable to those of conventional vehicles was based upon the greater tyre and road surface wear, and resuspension associated with a greater vehicle weight. Some electric vehicles are lighter than their internal combustion engine counterparts; consequently the issue is likely to be considerably more complex than suggested by this research.”
 
I can't even begin to understand the complex science when it comes to global warming and I doubt any one person can understand the complexities of the environment and our impact on it. However it has always struck me that the Earth's atmosphere is a finite space and all the pollution we create has to go somewhere,so regardless of people's belief in GW we should just do everything we can to minimize our polluting ways.
 
Hi Geoff -

Yes, that's all correct.

I also got a slightly lighter car when I switched to an EV because, despite being about the same size as my previous one, it had been designed from the ground up as an EV and so reducing weight had been a major design factor. Admittedly, the i3 isn't a typical EV :) But battery energy density is also increasing all the time.

All my other points about PM1, O3, CO2 and NOx still stand, though.

This could go back and forth indefinitely, I guess, perhaps more than is appropriate for a motorhome forum :) Maybe we should revisit it in 10 years and see how the landscape looks then!

Quentin
 
Wow thats all heavy stuff for a motorhome forum but fascinating nevertheless.
Back to earth for a minute, I remain unconvinced about EV's but out of intetest read some reviews of the Outlander PHEV based on the unlikely assumption that I would suddenly want to change from my 2008 XTrail auto. The 2014 outlander would be my likely choice. But in reading the reviews, although they seem to agree its a great car the EV aspect of it being beneficial largely depended on my driving requirements which did not fit. In that I do not make lots of short ( sub 30 mile) trips nor motorway journeys and in my case a similar aged Diesel would be more economic.
So, I will stick with my Diesel cars for now and at my next change, and drive my Euro4 Ducato van confident that I am not melting Icecaps. When you look at bush fires, volcanoes, disasters, wars, riots going on in the world I somehow feel my contribution would be pretty irrelevant.
That said, I wholeheartedly agree that pollution of any kind should be prevented wherever possible.
Finally(for me) I laugh when I hear the phrase " save the planet" ha! The planet will do a pretty good job of saving itself I reckon and will move inexorably to the next stage in its evolution with or more likely without the human race... (which is a plague really)
K 🤔
 
British engineer and former Royal Navy officer Trevor Jackson, signed a multi-million-pound deal
to start manufacturing the device on a large scale in the UK.

 
British engineer and former Royal Navy officer Trevor Jackson, signed a multi-million-pound deal
to start manufacturing the device on a large scale in the UK.

Hopefully, these batteries will get us a little closer to hydrocarbon-esque energy densities and 1,500 miles is more than anyone will want to drive in a day. Hopefully, they also don't have the same issue as lithium-based batteries, like the ones in the EV that Richard Hammond crashed a couple of years ago that kept reigniting for days after the fire brigade put out the original fire.

TBH, EVs are at the very least more versatile than ICEVs since you can power an EV from just about any base energy source whereas (modern) ICEVs can only use a very narrow range of fuels. However, the cost will need to come down from the eyewatering prices of today.
 
I have read that older diesel engines produce larger ( and more visible) particulates which are actually less harmful to health - the desire to clean emissions has made the situation worse.
On another note CO2 is essential to all life, we are historically at a low level of CO2, and plants would grow much better if levels were at 1000 pmm. (which would not in any way be harmful to our health) Plant nurseries often increase CO2 in glasshouses for that reason. Levels of CO2 have been at 4000ppm during long ice ages which would indicate it is at best an insignificant greenhouse gas.
NASA photographs taken from their earliest satellites compared to current photos of the Earth show that an increase of vegetation the size of America has occurred due to deserts shrinking as plants are able to grow with less water if CO2 levels increase. Which quite starkly means our producing CO2 is beneficial to the Earth.
There are many pollutants that should be drastically reduced - but CO2 is not one of them!
On charging EVs from your own solar panels - I have 16 full size panels on my workshop roof facing SSW - in the previous 2 cloudy days they produced 0.2 and 0.4 kwh, at which rate it would take 133 days to recharge a 40 kwh battery.....obviously an almost worst case scenario but shows the problems with renewables.
 
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On the subject of EV longevity,here's Tesla's doing half a million miles...


The factor about EV's that concerns me is their durability in time/age terms rather than their mileage potential as I only drive approx. 6k miles per annum in my main daily driver.

Currently I am considering changing my existing BMW 1.6D for a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, both of which are 0 VED rated, but I never ever buy new cars and as such the one I am likely to go for is 4 to 5 years old, so how much more life will the batteries fitted to it have and then at what cost?

If on the other hand I keep the BMW then I should have at least another 10 years of use before I have to consider any major mechanical expense when the engine has to come out to change the timing chain.
 
British engineer and former Royal Navy officer Trevor Jackson, signed a multi-million-pound deal
to start manufacturing the device on a large scale in the UK.

Keen as I am to promote all kinds of battery research, there is a big problem with this one, which isn't very clear from the article (not that one expects too much from the Daily Mail!).

These batteries are not rechargeable. They're recyclable. So you need to swap the battery after you've done your 1500 miles. Apart from the hassle, that requires you to be driving to somewhere where they can actually do the swap, of a battery that'll weigh a significant fraction of a tonne.

It probably has important niche uses e.g. in the military, which allow it to attract investment, but I don't think it's viable for electric cars.
 
The factor about EV's that concerns me is their durability in time/age terms rather than their mileage potential as I only drive approx. 6k miles per annum in my main daily driver.

Currently I am considering changing my existing BMW 1.6D for a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, both of which are 0 VED rated, but I never ever buy new cars and as such the one I am likely to go for is 4 to 5 years old, so how much more life will the batteries fitted to it have and then at what cost?

If on the other hand I keep the BMW then I should have at least another 10 years of use before I have to consider any major mechanical expense when the engine has to come out to change the timing chain.
Keep the Beemer. Let them sort the gremlins out before you shell out. There’s every chance there will be a new kid on the block by then. EV’s would be so yesterday.
 

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