B2B Battery 2 Battery charger

[xsilvergs]

I've read similar things about the Sterling and also (I think) the Ring both getting hot and throttling back their charge significantly and it is a bit concerning.
I know on somne testing I did the Ablemail 30A unit ran continuously for 4 hours at full output (actually putting out 32A) with no issues and the Redarc 40A unit put out between 35A and 38A (fluctuated between that range) for slightly more than 4 hours.
What is interesting about that is neither the Ablemail OR the Redarc has ANY active cooling in the form of fans and are sealed units with no airflow within them. I guess a very clear difference in design approach? (I'll be doing a test on the Ablemail 60A B2B shortly and attaching a temperature sensor as well - the 30A unit hit 50C after 4 hours of full-on output)

How about a back-to-back test to compare the Sterling Power BB1260 and the Ablemail 60A B2B?

 

[wildebus]

How about a back-to-back test to compare the Sterling Power BB1260 and the Ablemail 60A B2B?

nice idea if I had a Sterling Power BB1260

 

[xsilvergs]

nice idea if I had a Sterling Power BB1260

Sorry I can't help you with that.

Anyone have a Sterling BB1260 to lend wildebus?

 

[wildebus]

Sorry I can't help you with that.

Anyone have a Sterling BB1260 to lend wildebus?

Thing is, this is a bit of a Stress Test and the unit could fail potentially.
For the stuff I own, then that is down to me to manage any warranty issues.
When I do the Ablemail 60A charger, it will be sent to me and if it fails (it won't though!) it will be a just a matter of telling them "your charger failed".
If a private individual lends me something to test like this, they wouldn't be happy if I said that to them

 

[Deleted member 4892]

Thing is, this is a bit of a Stress Test and the unit could fail potentially.
For the stuff I own, then that is down to me to manage any warranty issues.
When I do the Ablemail 60A charger, it will be sent to me and if it fails (it won't though!) it will be a just a matter of telling them "your charger failed".
If a private individual lends me something to test like this, they wouldn't be happy if I said that to them

This is the main reason we always test product before showcasing it to customers. The last thing we want is people returning due to inferior product and not doing it's intended job, hence why it is either benched out in the workshop or it goes on our own vans for a lengthy period of time. It's also a case noting on the back up when we do break something as to how efficient Z company is in dealing with the issue (This is the case with a new Air Con Unit at the moment that we are testing), especially that we have a reasonable customer base that don't live in this country (well until the B word is finally sorted and changes that for some) so knowing how they can deal with overseas issues that may arise and how they can support those customers.
Well established companies should be the key, they spend tens of thousands on R&D, have a network of dealers and distributors ready to help and their gear is tried and tested. Sterling and Victron as examples are so well known in the Marine and leisure industries, their product does exactly what it says on the tin. Yes you may pay a premium for their equipment, but your paying for years of experience, R&D and reliability and as you can imagine, you need this kind of reliable product when you're in a boat in the middle of the ocean!! With this kind of stability and reliability, this has reflected across their range of product including their road products.

 

[wildebus]

This is the main reason we always test product before showcasing it to customers. The last thing we want is people returning due to inferior product and not doing it's intended job, hence why it is either benched out in the workshop or it goes on our own vans for a lengthy period of time. It's also a case noting on the back up when we do break something as to how efficient Z company is in dealing with the issue (This is the case with a new Air Con Unit at the moment that we are testing), especially that we have a reasonable customer base that don't live in this country (well until the B word is finally sorted and changes that for some) so knowing how they can deal with overseas issues that may arise and how they can support those customers.
Well established companies should be the key, they spend tens of thousands on R&D, have a network of dealers and distributors ready to help and their gear is tried and tested. Sterling and Victron as examples are so well known in the Marine and leisure industries, their product does exactly what it says on the tin. Yes you may pay a premium for their equipment, but your paying for years of experience, R&D and reliability and as you can imagine, you need this kind of reliable product when you're in a boat in the middle of the ocean!! With this kind of stability and reliability, this has reflected across their range of product including their road products.

Well said,
When selecting products, the implications of it failing should be considered as much as the cost of buying it. This is why when recommending products to customers, I talk to them about their use and requirements before suggesting any specifics and why I may well recommend one product which may well seem to be 2,4 or even 8 x the price of an apparently identical product in terms of function. But if something is critical, then a known product with good warranty can be worth every extra penny.

 

[wildebus]

Not really related directly but an interesting sidebar point .... I spent a few hours today speaking to a new (hopefully!) customer about an electrics setup in a new conversion they are doing, and the topic of combination devices came up ... e.g. B2B/MPPT controllers, or Charger/Inverters.
They had a concern - which is reasonable enough - that if one part fails, they loose multiple features while that product is fixed/replaced.
Something to think about generally , but especially on anything that is 'mission-ctritical' - which is why with computer systems, there are hot-standbys, redundant drive arrays, etc. - and in the more basic RV world, you might have a portable stove to boil a kettle if your main hob fails. But if the all-in-one battery charger fails, then your battery is going to drain as your solar won't do anything, neither will your alternator and going to a campsite won't do anything either.

And back to my customer ... because of her thoughts, we will probably be going for a Victron Mains Charger and a Victron Inverter INSTEAD of a Victron Multiplus. Not cutting corners on the products but also not putting the eggs into one basket.

 

[SquirrellCook]

Not cutting corners on the products but also not putting the eggs into one basket.

Redundancy, another good reason to stick to one voltage if possible throughout your motorhome.

 

[Deleted member 4892]

And back to my customer ... because of her thoughts, we will probably be going for a Victron Mains Charger and a Victron Inverter INSTEAD of a Victron Multiplus. Not cutting corners on the products but also not putting the eggs into one basket.

Have a slight disagreement on this choice I'm afraid. I'd totally understand it if the Combi unit has a reputation for being a tad unreliable, but the Multi-plus units are bomb proof and E marked for road use, plus the installation of a transfer switch for the ring main isn't necessary. This also leads on to the great feature of Power Share that the Multi-plus has, where if you're on a restricted site supply of 6A and you temporary load the mains to exceed this supply, the Multi-Plus tops up the demand by supplying the 4a shortfall by inverting the remaining demand. Once this temporary shortfall is done, it goes back to it's normal mode. Equally as important is that it future proofs the install by having a mains charger with an Lithium charge profile. I do not see the point in giving yourself more work for what is an inferior installation.

 

[wildebus]

Have a slight disagreement on this choice I'm afraid. I'd totally understand it if the Combi unit has a reputation for being a tad unreliable, but the Multi-plus units are bomb proof and E marked for road use, plus the installation of a transfer switch for the ring main isn't necessary. This also leads on to the great feature of Power Share that the Multi-plus has, where if you're on a restricted site supply of 6A and you temporary load the mains to exceed this supply, the Multi-Plus tops up the demand by supplying the 4a shortfall by inverting the remaining demand. Once this temporary shortfall is done, it goes back to it's normal mode. Equally as important is that it future proofs the install by having a mains charger with an Lithium charge profile. I do not see the point in giving yourself more work for what is an inferior installation.

You know the phrase "The customer is always right"?

PS. You don't need to sell me on the benefits of the Multiplus, but the right product depends on the environment. In THIS case, the multiplus would have been probably a little over the top as the only need for 240V would be Fridge plus if on hookup a Heater (which you would never want to run through a battery anyway).
Plus ... it would have been the 12/500 MP and that Multiplus does not have the Power Assist (what you are calling Power Share) anyway.

 

[wildebus]

Thing is, this is a bit of a Stress Test and the unit could fail potentially.
For the stuff I own, then that is down to me to manage any warranty issues.
When I do the Ablemail 60A charger, it will be sent to me and if it fails (it won't though!) it will be a just a matter of telling them "your charger failed".
If a private individual lends me something to test like this, they wouldn't be happy if I said that to them

Prepping my battery bank currently (i.e. running a 500W heater continously) in order to be able to try out this chappy that arrived today ...


In the box is a 60A B2B from Ablemail. It is a fair sized beast compared to the 30A little brother on the right ...

Same concept on both - closed box with no through ventilation and no fan, but an extruded aluminium finned casing to work as a heatsink, so a very different approach to the Sterling. It will be interesting to see what happens when I want to put over 300Ah back into the battery

 

[WildThingsKev]

In 5 years I don't think I've ever had the fan running on my Votronic 45A b2b and it gets heavily used charging 2x110Ah gels over a 2 month, zero hookup, alpine snowboarding trip.

 

[Okta]

I am very pleased with my Votronic 1212-45 B2B but I have no idea whether the fan runs as I drive along. My wife checks our Victron battery monitor from time to time on the phone app so I know it bangs out the desired Amps and Volts.

 

[Deleted member 4892]

My concerns would certainly be cooling, as any leading manufacturer of B2B tech always have the ability to cool the units exceeding 30A output using fans (Victron introduced a cooling fan kit on the Buck-Boost addressing this issue). With the previous comments made about not hearing the fans, the likelihood is you won't. Most brushless cooling fans are ultra quiet, but a good B2B will vary the cooling fan speed anyway.
Secondly, they really need to sort their website out and put up the prices of the product.

I personally will be sticking to Sterling and Victron for product, as we have worked with Sterling for well over 12 years and even stuff that has been well past warranty has been supported. Now I'm saying this bravely (and not wanting to ginks us here), but so far after 5 years, we have a Zero return on Victron to date!!!
Sterling ,Victron and Voltronic product does look the part when installed, rather than (and apologies if I am being a bit rude here) something that was installed 15-20 years ago.

 

[wildebus]

My concerns would certainly be cooling, as any leading manufacturer of B2B tech always have the ability to cool the units exceeding 30A output using fans (Victron introduced a cooling fan kit on the Buck-Boost addressing this issue). With the previous comments made about not hearing the fans, the likelihood is you won't. Most brushless cooling fans are ultra quiet, but a good B2B will vary the cooling fan speed anyway.
Secondly, they really need to sort their website out and put up the prices of the product.

I personally will be sticking to Sterling and Victron for product, as we have worked with Sterling for well over 12 years and even stuff that has been well past warranty has been supported. Now I'm saying this bravely (and not wanting to ginks us here), but so far after 5 years, we have a Zero return on Victron to date!!!
Sterling ,Victron and Voltronic product does look the part when installed, rather than (and apologies if I am being a bit rude here) something that was installed 15-20 years ago.

Sterling kits have always looked to me like they could have been on the shelf of ToysRUs (as you can see from the "my first B2B" installed in your photo )

 

[Deleted member 4892]

Sterling kits have always looked to me like they could have been on the shelf of ToysRUs (as you can see from the "my first B2B" installed in your photo )

I'm not sure about the service kit Ablemail are offering

 

[YokellCouple]

Hi ,,, I'd be interested to know if this worked as I am having similar issues with an older Nordelettronica N184 system. Similarly I spotted potential issue with fridge but hadn't thought of resolving with high power relay. Nigel

 

[xsilvergs]

Hi ,,, I'd be interested to know if this worked as I am having similar issues with an older Nordelettronica N184 system. Similarly I spotted potential issue with fridge but hadn't thought of resolving with high power relay. Nigel

As the OP I have say I haven't fitted a B2B yet. So far I've moved the battery to a new position in readiness for LiFePO4 and upgraded some of the wiring for the larger charge current and to lower voltage drops.

I am waiting for a relay so I can power the fridge on a separate supply from the Starter Battery whilst driving. This will reduce the load through the Nord' controller and help reduce the volt drop which is affecting charging.

Charging current to the AGM LB is approximately 13 Amps but if the fridge comes on line and draws its 15 Amps (at a guess) the battery charge current reduces to 10 Amps.

Update to follow.

 

[Markd]

Supplying the fridge direct from alternator/SB with a good big cable (10mm² minimum - don't forget to fuse it) will make a big difference to the LB charging performance when travelling.
With a bit of luck you'll get the voltage high enough for the AGM LB.
At least you have a Nordelectronica which will provide enough voltage to charge an AGM battery on hook up.
Your initial plans go a long way towards B2B levels of performance particularly for wet lead acid batteries - but the higher charge voltage needed for AGM batteries means that B2B would probably be needed.
Personally I prefer to save money on the battery and charger - by reverting to EFB or Varta powerframe you can get two batteries for same price as AGM and B2B.
Of course changing to lithium ion is a game changer if you have the consumption to warrant the considerable extra initial cost.

 

[wildebus]

As the OP I have say I haven't fitted a B2B yet. So far I've moved the battery to a new position in readiness for LiFePO4 and upgraded some of the wiring for the larger charge current and to lower voltage drops.

I am waiting for a relay so I can power the fridge on a separate supply from the Starter Battery whilst driving. This will reduce the load through the Nord' controller and help reduce the volt drop which is affecting charging.

Charging current to the AGM LB is approximately 13 Amps but if the fridge comes on line and draws its 15 Amps (at a guess) the battery charge current reduces to 10 Amps.

Update to follow.

I noticed something last week in my Motorhome fitted with a Sargent unit which I found both interesting and a little odd.
The way the Sargent works may or may not be similar to your unit, so this might be useful to you?

I found that the "split-charge" part of the system was no longer working - so when driving, the Lesiure Battery would not get any charge from the Alternator. However, the Sargent system knew the engine was running as the Habitation Electrics shut off like they are (annoyingly) meant to do when you start the engine. Plus the Fridge changed to 12V mode AND was getting power from the Starter Battery (I could tell it was the Starter as there was no draw from the Leisure Battery).
So it would seem at first glance that the Fridge 12V supply is on a separate circuit to the 'split-charge' and the two can be controlled/managed independantly from each other.
The 'odd' part of this is what was stopping the 'split-charge' working? it turned out I had accidently pulled a cable from the Sargent Unit some time previously when doing some adjustments. And when I refitted this (was tricky as can't see it so had to use a mirror behind a shelf!) the Leisure Battery got its vehicle charging back.
But the cable that was pulled had one wire that went from the unit to the fridge (according to the diagram) and this seems to be a wire FROM the Fridge TO the Sargent, not the other way round.
If the wiring is done like the Sargent diagram suggests, the Fridge Relay actually enables the Split-Charge to work, so if the Fridge Relay fails, you won't get your Leisure Battery charging either, even though that battery charge circuit is separate!