Charging your Leisure Batteries on the move.

[wildebus]

Yeah with little airflow in the engine bay I did wonder if heat would spell the end of that set-up eventually. Makes me wonder whether letting a powerful B2B charge flat house batteries at a standstill is a good idea too (that's the only reason I'd be interested in one i.e. fast charge without moving vehicle). I guess they have alternator/rectifier temperature monitoring?

I don't think any B2B products have any kind of Alternator monitoring. They usually have internal temp monitoring of the unit to prevent charger overheating and some have battery temp monitoring for optimum voltage output.
You don't tend to see modern vehicles on the side of the road with steam coming out their bonnets any longer so I would imagine the B2B makers can fairly assume the vehicle designer has taken care of that side of the design and it is not a concern for them.
It is not that unusual for an alternator to fail once called on to charger an auxiliary battery though with the greater load as it may have been borderline but not obvious beforehand (happened to me a couple of times on T5s).

 

[mk1]

Yeah with little airflow in the engine bay I did wonder if heat would spell the end of that set-up eventually. Makes me wonder whether letting a powerful B2B charge flat house batteries at a standstill is a good idea too (that's the only reason I'd be interested in one i.e. fast charge without moving vehicle). I guess they have alternator/rectifier temperature monitoring?

I don't think any B2B products have any kind of Alternator monitoring. They usually have internal temp monitoring of the unit to prevent charger overheating and some have battery temp monitoring for optimum voltage output.
You don't tend to see modern vehicles on the side of the road with steam coming out their bonnets any longer so I would imagine the B2B makers can fairly assume the vehicle designer has taken care of that side of the design and it is not a concern for them.
It is not that unusual for an alternator to fail once called on to charger an auxiliary battery though with the greater load as it may have been borderline but not obvious beforehand (happened to me a couple of times on T5s).

Fair enough, vehicles do need to be able to sit in stationary traffic at 40C+ with all electrical accessories on max for hours without breaking-down!

 

[chas142]

I think that most vehicles have electric cooling fans for the radiator now, a much better way to cool the water system as works fully at any engine speed. Not designed to cool the alternator though, I suspect it actually makes it worse for the alternator, higher output needed and hotter radiator air blown into engine compartment. I suspect if you actually ran the radiator fan full time it may drop the engine bay temperature which could help or fit some type of piped cooling fan system to blow air into the rear of the alternator.

I got a bit lost in the post, when you say charge house batteries do you mean Motorhome habitation batteries, not a separate system in your House system?

Some applications have low RPM high power alternators, like, or more so than the graph shows, they would obviously be more capable than a standard alternator, but would normally be a lot more expensive. Finding one that fits your application could be difficult, fitting a second alternator is another option or upgrading your own unit could assist.

 

[mk1]

I think that most vehicles have electric cooling fans for the radiator now, a much better way to cool the water system as works fully at any engine speed. Not designed to cool the alternator though, I suspect it actually makes it worse for the alternator, higher output needed and hotter radiator air blown into engine compartment. I suspect if you actually ran the radiator fan full time it may drop the engine bay temperature which could help or fit some type of piped cooling fan system to blow air into the rear of the alternator.

I got a bit lost in the post, when you say charge house batteries do you mean Motorhome habitation batteries, not a separate system in your House system?

Some applications have low RPM high power alternators, like, or more so than the graph shows, they would obviously be more capable than a standard alternator, but would normally be a lot more expensive. Finding one that fits your application could be difficult, fitting a second alternator is another option or upgrading your own unit could assist.

Yes, I meant habitation batteries

 

[wildebus]

A year on and time to add a product to the testing mix

Decided to try out one of the new Victron B2Bs that arrived today - namely the Orion -TR Smart Charger


This is the 30A 12V-12V unit, and it looks like this

Same casing as the MPPT Controller.
Because I have changed the battery bank in the van since the previous testing, I'll probably rerun the Ablemail 30A unit as the control unit and then repeat the test with the Victron 30A unit for the comparison.

Cabled it up to check out and look at what you get, so a few observations before the testing ...

Maximum Cable size is 16mm2 and the unit uses clamps to secure rather than ring studs, which is more common. If you do use 16mm2 cable (recommend if the cable is >2M, then you will have to use bare cable as fitting ferrules will make it impossible to insert the connector. Personally, I would prefer Studs, but Victron seem to like this method as it is used on the Solar Controllers, the Inverters and the other DC-DC Converters.


One of the key features of this Victron B2B is of course the Bluetooth connectivity. This lets you configure the Charger more precisely than just about any other B2B charger on the market. The Victron App also lets you see what mode the Charger is in, which could potentially be handy


But actually this aspect I am not sure will be overally useful, as all it tells you is the model of the charger (Bulk, Absorption or Float), and does not reveal any info on the charge current (the most important info probably) at any time or any history (because it looks like the MPPT, you might expect similar level of info to the MPPT?)


So the Connectivity side is a slight disappointment considering what you can see from other Victron kit, but having said that it is still more than most of course, and with the expected Victron Product quality and the 5 year warranty, I think it will still be a great option.

Now cabled up and ready for some initial testing to check the setup before the actual full-on stress test

 

[HurricaneSmith]

Did you ever test a "Battery Master" as sold by Eddie VB please?

It's what's installed in my van and seems to work as intended, powered from the solar panel. At least, it did until lockdown.
.

 

[wildebus]

Did you ever test a "Battery Master" as sold by Eddie VB please?

It's what's installed in my van and seems to work as intended, powered from the solar panel. At least, it did until lockdown.
.

I'll try one if I get sent one

 

[xsilvergs]

A year on and time to add a product to the testing mix

Decided to try out one of the new Victron B2Bs that arrived today - namely the Orion -TR Smart Charger
View attachment 54651

This is the 30A 12V-12V unit, and it looks like this
View attachment 54652
Same casing as the MPPT Controller.
Because I have changed the battery bank in the van since the previous testing, I'll probably rerun the Ablemail 30A unit as the control unit and then repeat the test with the Victron 30A unit for the comparison.

Cabled it up to check out and look at what you get, so a few observations before the testing ...

Maximum Cable size is 16mm2 and the unit uses clamps to secure rather than ring studs, which is more common. If you do use 16mm2 cable (recommend if the cable is >2M, then you will have to use bare cable as fitting ferrules will make it impossible to insert the connector. Personally, I would prefer Studs, but Victron seem to like this method as it is used on the Solar Controllers, the Inverters and the other DC-DC Converters.
View attachment 54653

One of the key features of this Victron B2B is of course the Bluetooth connectivity. This lets you configure the Charger more precisely than just about any other B2B charger on the market. The Victron App also lets you see what mode the Charger is in, which could potentially be handy
View attachment 54655

But actually this aspect I am not sure will be overally useful, as all it tells you is the model of the charger (Bulk, Absorption or Float), and does not reveal any info on the charge current (the most important info probably) at any time or any history (because it looks like the MPPT, you might expect similar level of info to the MPPT?)
View attachment 54656 View attachment 54657 View attachment 54658

So the Connectivity side is a slight disappointment considering what you can see from other Victron kit, but having said that it is still more than most of course, and with the expected Victron Product quality and the 5 year warranty, I think it will still be a great option.

Now cabled up and ready for some initial testing to check the setup before the actual full-on stress test
View attachment 54659

No VE.Direct either at the moment!

 

[wildebus]

No VE.Direct either at the moment!

That is quite correct. The unit I have here is also the higher-end Isolated Charger, rather than the non-isolated Charger that is also now available. Not really an advantage on a vehicle but could be important on a steel-hulled boat?

 

[HurricaneSmith]

I'll try one if I get sent one

Ahhhh, sorry, I only bought one.

 

[wildebus]

Ahhhh, sorry, I only bought one.

☹

no Probs. it gets expensive to buy lots of kit to test so tend to get stuff that I either am likely to use myself or likely to sell if I rate it. (I'd love to try the Ring B2B/MPPT and especially the CTEK 250S but at the moment can't afford to take the punt on the offchance)

 

[xsilvergs]

A year on and time to add a product to the testing mix

Decided to try out one of the new Victron B2Bs that arrived today - namely the Orion -TR Smart Charger
View attachment 54651

This is the 30A 12V-12V unit, and it looks like this
View attachment 54652
Same casing as the MPPT Controller.
Because I have changed the battery bank in the van since the previous testing, I'll probably rerun the Ablemail 30A unit as the control unit and then repeat the test with the Victron 30A unit for the comparison.

Cabled it up to check out and look at what you get, so a few observations before the testing ...

Maximum Cable size is 16mm2 and the unit uses clamps to secure rather than ring studs, which is more common. If you do use 16mm2 cable (recommend if the cable is >2M, then you will have to use bare cable as fitting ferrules will make it impossible to insert the connector. Personally, I would prefer Studs, but Victron seem to like this method as it is used on the Solar Controllers, the Inverters and the other DC-DC Converters.
View attachment 54653

One of the key features of this Victron B2B is of course the Bluetooth connectivity. This lets you configure the Charger more precisely than just about any other B2B charger on the market. The Victron App also lets you see what mode the Charger is in, which could potentially be handy
View attachment 54655

But actually this aspect I am not sure will be overally useful, as all it tells you is the model of the charger (Bulk, Absorption or Float), and does not reveal any info on the charge current (the most important info probably) at any time or any history (because it looks like the MPPT, you might expect similar level of info to the MPPT?)
View attachment 54656 View attachment 54657 View attachment 54658

So the Connectivity side is a slight disappointment considering what you can see from other Victron kit, but having said that it is still more than most of course, and with the expected Victron Product quality and the 5 year warranty, I think it will still be a great option.

Now cabled up and ready for some initial testing to check the setup before the actual full-on stress test
View attachment 54659

It's a shame they couldn't add some voltage and current values to this image which shows the Bulk, Abs and Float characteristics

 

[wildebus]

It is a bit surprising the lack of data shown. Now given that this unit is only really active when you are driving, I wonder if that is a reason why it wasn't a priority to show that? When a model comes out with the VE.Direct port it should be very interesting, but one aspect that I will be setting up tomorrow is a configuration to emulate the CTEK 250S with SmartPass.
The Victron B2B has a remote on-off control which can be used to disable the unit, so using the Orion Smart, the Cyrix CT, plus a simple 5-pin control relay, I should be able to automate switching between the high-current Bulk charging of the Cyrix and the lower-current Absorption charging of the Orion using either the relay output of the BMV or the Venus GX. Assuming this works, it should out-perform the CTEK w/Smartpass. That is a possible 100A bulk, 20A smart charger, but the Orion/Cyrix combo would be a possible 120A bulk/30A smart combo.

 

[Chasn]

Over the last year I have bought quite a lot of Victron products for both a static solar system and a motorhome. They aren't cheap but are good quality. In the motorhome I fitted a pair of 90Ahr Victron lithium batteries withe the associated BMS (battery Management System). The only thing which made life more difficult is that the Victron BMS uses the negative connection for control. This means that the leisure system ground has to be separate to the vehicle ground making it difficult to integrate the Victron components with the CBE.
When it came to the B2B unit I went for the 60A Sterling unit. This was because it was the only cost effective way to get some fast charging. Often we only drive for a few hours between nightstop and a 30A unit just doesn't get the charge into the batteries fast enough. We often use the inverter instead of gas for the fridge overnight and therefore use up most of the battery capacity. As it happens (with the Sterling unit at least) the B2B output never reaches the rated capacity. In the case of the Sterling unit I never see more than 45A for a 60A unit so it is good that I went for the higher capacity. One of the advantages of having lithium batteries is the ability to accept and provide high currents so it seems sensible to go for a high current rated B2B controller. The one thing I don't like about the Sterling unit is that it does all its cooling internally using a small fan (no external fins). Even in cool temperatures this often results in reduced charge due to raised unit temperatures. I managed to overcome this by including a forced cooling system using exterior air. Even B2B units with fin cooling may struggle when working hard as they are invariably mounted in an enclosed and insulated part of the vehicle.

 

[wildebus]

Over the last year I have bought quite a lot of Victron products for both a static solar system and a motorhome. They aren't cheap but are good quality. In the motorhome I fitted a pair of 90Ahr Victron lithium batteries withe the associated BMS (battery Management System). The only thing which made life more difficult is that the Victron BMS uses the negative connection for control. This means that the leisure system ground has to be separate to the vehicle ground making it difficult to integrate the Victron components with the CBE.
When it came to the B2B unit I went for the 60A Sterling unit. This was because it was the only cost effective way to get some fast charging. Often we only drive for a few hours between nightstop and a 30A unit just doesn't get the charge into the batteries fast enough. We often use the inverter instead of gas for the fridge overnight and therefore use up most of the battery capacity. As it happens (with the Sterling unit at least) the B2B output never reaches the rated capacity. In the case of the Sterling unit I never see more than 45A for a 60A unit so it is good that I went for the higher capacity. One of the advantages of having lithium batteries is the ability to accept and provide high currents so it seems sensible to go for a high current rated B2B controller. The one thing I don't like about the Sterling unit is that it does all its cooling internally using a small fan (no external fins). Even in cool temperatures this often results in reduced charge due to raised unit temperatures. I managed to overcome this by including a forced cooling system using exterior air. Even B2B units with fin cooling may struggle when working hard as they are invariably mounted in an enclosed and insulated part of the vehicle.

This is why I rate the Ablemail B2B so highly. The 30A unit put out a constant 32A for 6 hours and at the point it went into Absorption mode the casing was still only 50 degrees Celsius. I've heard the Sterling's tend to derate quite quickly due to heat and the Redarc 40A unit was not consistent either.
As far as wanting a higher current for bulk charging even when you have a B2B, youmay be interested, as a Victron enthusiast, in my last update on this thread - https://motorhomebuilder.com/threads/split-chargers-b2b-relays-which-one-or-both.66709/#post-873222

 

[Okta]

My Votronic B2B also behaves as advertised.

 

[Chasn]

I had a look at the Ablemail website. It doesn't seem that they produce higher current B2B controllers. Even if the Sterling derates I am able to regularly get 42-45A from a 60A B2B so it is probably a good choice for me.

 

[wildebus]

I had a look at the Ablemail website. It doesn't seem that they produce higher current B2B controllers. Even if the Sterling derates I am able to regularly get 42-45A from a 60A B2B so it is probably a good choice for me.

There is a 60A B2B from Ablemail that will probably deliver 64A in the same way that the 30A one delivers 32A (I have one but not been able to test it yet as my vans alternator cannot deliver a decent reliable current and needs fixing)