How Safe are our vehicles, in particular EVs?

[tonybvi]

Point number 1: it is not confirmed that it was an EV that caused the current ferry fire in Dutch water. In fact the Dutch Coastguard have stated that the cause of the fire is unknown and that it cannot at the moment be attributed to one of the 25 EV‘s aboard (Amongst more than a thousand or so ICE vehicles)

Point number 2: the Danish authorities have just completed a study on EV fires. The conclusion is that a) an ICE vehicle is much more likely to catch fire than an EV but that b) an EV fire is much harder to extinguish than an ICE fire. The best methodology so far if it is an EV fire is water mist, not to extinguish the EV fire but to control the spread of fire.

So please let us not all jump to conclusions about the inherent safety, or otherwise of EV’s, until the facts of individual fires are confirmed (if they can be).

 

[GMJ]

I imagine they would let you into the next carriage before closing the fire door.

Maybe

I guessed that but I was more worried about my vehicle being in a sealed carriage getting damaged with another vehicle having a battery blow!

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I'm not an EV fan (what gave me away?) I'm of the opinion it's the wrong road to go down long term and Hydrogen is best, but to be fair that is worse as it could give a massive explosion.

 

[2cv]

Video explaining the problems;

 

[Jenrai]

Are the lithium car batteries and scooter batteries not the same as leisure batteries? Any exploding motorhomes yet?

 

[Pudsey Bear]

My phone gets very hot in use as a sat nav, and my scooter battery gets warm as well, I think the possible issue is abuse and the huge quantity, in an EV there is a cooling system to keep them cool maybe that fails and they go up

 

[Marshman]

One of our lead acid batteries exploded in Pembrokeshire a couple of years ago in the battery compartment under the bench seat ...while we were sitting on the seat. My fault ...we are almost always on EHU and I hadn't checked the distilled levels which had gone right down.
Didn't half give us a shock!

 

[tonybvi]

Reverting back to the current cartransporter vessel fire that some are stating was caused by an EV, these vehicles are NOT charged on board the vessels. They are loaded with a decent (but not 100%) state of charge and are then charged after arrival at dockside if required.

 

[PopesOnTour]

Lithium battery fires depend on the battery chemistry, most EV's have batteries that won't burn. Even Tesla have switched battery chemistry. I would be more concerned about the risk from ICE vehicles, they catch fire far more often than EV's, they just don't make it into the press.

If you want to go hydrogen powered, that's a well known fire risk. Also, where is all the electricity going to come from to generate the hydrogen? EV's reduce electricity consumption as it takes more electricity to produce petrol/diesel than the required to travel the same distance in an EV.

 

[CriftinsCampers]

Are the lithium car batteries and scooter batteries not the same as leisure batteries? Any exploding motorhomes yet?

Only one event I know of so far, a brand new Romer being installed into an overlander at Motorcraft.
There was talk about the batteries not being correctly CE certified apparently so lots of mud slinging between solicitors and insurers probably ensued.

 

[GeoffL]

Lithium battery fires depend on the battery chemistry, most EV's have batteries that won't burn. Even Tesla have switched battery chemistry. I would be more concerned about the risk from ICE vehicles, they catch fire far more often than EV's, they just don't make it into the press.

If you want to go hydrogen powered, that's a well known fire risk. Also, where is all the electricity going to come from to generate the hydrogen? EV's reduce electricity consumption as it takes more electricity to produce petrol/diesel than the required to travel the same distance in an EV.

AIUI, the opposite is the truth. Most EVs use Li-ion batteries, which I understand are cheaper to produce and have greater energy density. FWIW, an almost brand new Tesla went up in smoke a few weeks ago in Tideford, Cornwall; closing the A38 for over 4 hours. The press merely reported it as "a car fire" but a local eye-witness reported it to be a '23 plate' Model 3.
While more ICEVs catch fire, they are readily extinguished and reignition is rare. In contrast, the 'best advice' given to firefighters currently (at least in Australia, where they've spent millions researching the subject) is to contain the fire and let it burn itself out. Any other method risks unpredictable reignition.
BTW, I'd be interested in a reference that shows it takes more electricity to produce petrol/diesel than is required to travel the same distance in an EV as that statement just seems wrong since fractional distillation, thermal and catalytic cracking can all use 'petroleum waste' as fuel...

 

[PopesOnTour]

AIUI, the opposite is the truth. Most EVs use Li-ion batteries, which I understand are cheaper to produce and have greater energy density. FWIW, an almost brand new Tesla went up in smoke a few weeks ago in Tideford, Cornwall; closing the A38 for over 4 hours. The press merely reported it as "a car fire" but a local eye-witness reported it to be a '23 plate' Model 3.
While more ICEVs catch fire, they are readily extinguished and reignition is rare. In contrast, the 'best advice' given to firefighters currently (at least in Australia, where they've spent millions researching the subject) is to contain the fire and let it burn itself out. Any other method risks unpredictable reignition.
BTW, I'd be interested in a reference that shows it takes more electricity to produce petrol/diesel than is required to travel the same distance in an EV as that statement just seems wrong since fractional distillation, thermal and catalytic cracking can all use 'petroleum waste' as fuel...

I'm not aware of an EV that doesn't use Li-ion batteries, but the majority currently use LFP as opposed to other Li-ion technologies, mainly NMC. LFP batteries are far less prone to combustion and thermal runaway making them the safest Li-ion technology.

or

New study uncovers stunning misconception surrounding electric car fires — here's what most people get wrong

According to the study, electric car fires are less likely to occur when compared with traditional gas vehicles.

www.thecooldown.com

EV batteries don't do this

https://twitter.com/x/status/1668206068311408641

or this

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670359221928628229

Can't find the exact reference for the petrol/EV comparison, but

is interesting, note this is just for refining. Also https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

For general anti-EV matters - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHZYyHoSJD0&t=629s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ycEfIiIRc

The cargo ship fire cause is currently unknown https://electrek.co/2023/07/26/surprise-media-is-misreporting-the-source-of-a-dutch-cargo-ship-fire/

 

[GeoffL]

I'm not aware of an EV that doesn't use Li-ion batteries, but the majority currently use LFP as opposed to other Li-ion technologies, mainly NMC. LFP batteries are far less prone to combustion and thermal runaway making them the safest Li-ion technology.

Hmmm .... but EVs do this:

​

Note that the majority of the 500 EVs on the Freemantle Highway would be newly built, and so use the current technology you seem to claim as safe.
The way a petrol or diesel fire would have looked in those circumstances would be, as John Cadogan notes, plumes of thick black smoke due to the lack of oxygen below decks. In contrast, having reached thermal runaway temperature, Li-ion batteries produce their own heat and oxygen and are pretty much impossible to extinguish. It doesn't matter what started that fire, the reason it cannot be extinguished is the presence of EVs. The biggest issue isn't whether an EV starts a fire; it's whether EVs are involved -- and some of the scenarios John Cadogan puts forward are horrific.
AIUI, the Li-ion batteries fitted to almost all EVs and LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) are different with LFP having a much high thermal runaway temperature, lower energy density and higher cost. Nonetheless, have an underground car park or a ferry with (say) 20% of vehicles being EV and a fire starts, no matter what the cause, and you have an enormous problem that wouldn't exist without the EVs because the fire would then be extinguishable by shutting down the ventilation and starving the fire of oxygen.

Here's a couple from John Cadogan:

 

[marchie]

John B Goodenough, M Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino shared the 2019 Nobel prize for their work on Lithium Battery development, with Mr Yoshino's work focusing on the LifePo4 Battery which removed the tendency for the original Li-ion batteries to ignite and develop thermal runaway

Steve

 

[GeoffL]

John B Goodenough, M Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino shared the 2019 Nobel prize for their work on Lithium Battery development, with Mr Yoshino's work focusing on the LifePo4 Battery which removed the tendency for the original Li-ion batteries to ignite and develop thermal runaway

Steve

Reduced *not* removed. The thermal runaway temperature for LFP batteries is in excess of 200°C compared with ~160°C for 'standard' Li-ion. A single 'best practice' LFP cell doesn't generate enough heat for thermal runaway and a low state of charge (< 50%) reduces the risk further. However, EVs don't contain single LFP cells -- they contain batteries of them packed into as small a volume as the manufacturers can achieve and under those conditions the heat cannot dissipate quickly enough to prevent thermal runaway once the battery pack is is raised to the (albeit higher than 'standard' Li-ion) trigger temperature.
Whatever, the EVs being shipped today are susceptible to thermal runaway and IMO should be banned from all enclosed spaces (like ferries, underground car parks and tunnels).
Thankfully, LFP leisure batteries contain a much smaller number of cells than the main battery of an EV and so are less of an issue...

 

[Barge1914]

There are pedestrian doors between each carriage too , with air locks ,and the main doors each end of the carriages are always closed when the train moving , or that is how its been each time we used the train . and lorries always go on the cargo trains on open bogies not the general car and Motorhome ,Coaches. trains ,
And there are escape tunnels all the way through the tunnels too, be a long walk or run though hee hee

I wrote to Eurotunnel commenting on their failure of maintenance resulting in only one pair of fire doors in our carriage being able to close. Their official reply was that they are deemed safe with only one side of the airlock closed…the other one still remains unpulled!

 

[Geek]

It's a pity this discussion wandered off to compare battery chemistry, because that misses the point.

All motor vehicles need a dense power source to use as fuel. Whether it's diesel, petrol or some battery, all of them need to be power dense.

Yes, there are strengths and weaknesses, but any dense energy source is a risk.

The issue is whether or not an EV is a greater risk or not. I suspect that they're not a higher risk of catching fire, but a bigger danger if they do. There's no effective way to put an EV fire out in such a situation.

It's interesting that EVs are allowed in the channel tunnel, but LPG powered vehicles are not. What is the reasoning for that, I wonder?

Will hydrogen be treated like LPG? Whatever the current spin promoting EVs, hydrogen is the future for larger vehicles, if not all vehicles

 

[Pudsey Bear]

The problem with Hydrogen is pressure, I don't know how they get such immense pressures into the volume tanks to move it around the country, but it seems to be a leak-off system to supply the further down the line to the end user so it starts off at several thousand PSI.

I don't know what pressure the bulk LPG trucks travel with, but hydrogen is much higher.

 

[Geek]

The pressure isn't a problem. It's a technical issue, but it seems to have been resolved without you (or I) knowing the details of how.

The tanks are indeed very strong, but that means they're also resistant to damage in a mishap. A bit like LPG on steroids!

Even with the extra weight of the bottles, hydrogen is so incredibly energy dense that it matches diesel for KWh per KG.

As for distribution. I suspect that we'll see hydrogen being produced at the point of delivery, not shipped around in tankers.

 

[GeoffL]

As for distribution. I suspect that we'll see hydrogen being produced at the point of delivery, not shipped around in tankers.

In some ways that makes sense since the cost of transporting hydrogen at extreme pressures probably makes central generation non-viable. However, production of hydrogen from hydrocarbons probably isn't viable at the point of delivery and even that produced by electrolysis might not be viable as each filling station would require a huge supply of electricity and a (certified and regularly inspected) compressor as well as tanks capable of withstanding circa 700 to 1,400 atmospheres (assuming normal testing of pressure vessels of 2 x working pressure) and the testing routine will need to be carefully considered since (as the Titan submersible showed) pressure vessels can only take a number of cycles before structural fatigue occurs. Also, the amount of hydrogen stored in a tank (either at the filling station or in vehicle) is a tiny fraction of the overall mass (e.g. < 6% for a Toyota Mirai). So converting the fleet to hydrogen will require rather a lot of steel and other metals. That's not to say these issues are insurmountable, but synthetic hydrocarbon fuels might prove an easier solution.

BTW, anyone else noticed that in this discussion of batteries catching fire, every time you include the word "battery", the website links to BMS Technologies' Victron product page -- seems somewhat ironic!