Leisure battery choice

[wildebus]

Good to see you back Baz. I’m sorry for your loss.
Lead carbon batteries can be taken to 30% SOC occasionally. Obviously not on a regular basis.

You can in fact take Lead Carbon to near enough 0% SOC without damage. Not something to do as a matter of course, of course as it means your battery bank is undersized, but there can be reasons why you may want this ability.

Another benefit of Lead Carbon is one that is shared with Lithium ... it does not demand to be fully recharged ASAP like standard Lead Acid batteries and is happy being left in a PSOC (Partial State Of Charge) state. This can be useful when wilding 'out of season' where the solar will do little and the driving from one place to another is only good enough to put some charge back into the batteries, but not sufficient for a full charge.

 

[Iandsm]

You can in fact take Lead Carbon to near enough 0% SOC without damage. Not something to do as a matter of course, of course as it means your battery bank is undersized, but there can be reasons why you may want this ability.

Another benefit of Lead Carbon is one that is shared with Lithium ... it does not demand to be fully recharged ASAP like standard Lead Acid batteries and is happy being left in a PSOC (Partial State Of Charge) state. This can be useful when wilding 'out of season' where the solar will do little and the driving from one place to another is only good enough to put some charge back into the batteries, but not sufficient for a full charge.

That's helpful information thanks

 

[Mobilvetta]

You can in fact take Lead Carbon to near enough 0% SOC without damage. Not something to do as a matter of course, of course as it means your battery bank is undersized, but there can be reasons why you may want this ability.

Another benefit of Lead Carbon is one that is shared with Lithium ... it does not demand to be fully recharged ASAP like standard Lead Acid batteries and is happy being left in a PSOC (Partial State Of Charge) state. This can be useful when wilding 'out of season' where the solar will do little and the driving from one place to another is only good enough to put some charge back into the batteries, but not sufficient for a full charge.

Thank you, for your input, now looking at getting a pair of lead Carbon batteries.

 

[rugbyken]

been mulling this over for a couple of years but now batteries are 4 years old am committing to a lithium but intrigued by the hybrid systems such as derek has had fitted smoothing out the few lithium concerns ie charging when cold & limited discharge rate , found this guy on you tube the technical stuff is dumbed down enough that i can almost understand it and although my power bank is not as big as his nor is it required, so hopefully will fit the lithium in company with one of my current lead acids then in the summer add a lead carbon , but mixing the two technologies does have some significant advantages. This video might be worth watching.

it’s an american guy advocating hybrid for a boat installation

 

[SquirrellCook]

been mulling this over for a couple of years but now batteries are 4 years old am committing to a lithium but intrigued by the hybrid systems such as derek has had fitted smoothing out the few lithium concerns ie charging when cold & limited discharge rate , found this guy on you tube the technical stuff is dumbed down enough that i can almost understand it and although my power bank is not as big as his nor is it required, so hopefully will fit the lithium in company with one of my current lead acids then in the summer add a lead carbon , but mixing the two technologies does have some significant advantages. This video might be worth watching.

it’s an american guy advocating hybrid for a boat installation

I think this is the Video that inspired Wildebus to do the same. I still hate self promotion video clips

 

[Trotter]

Lead carbon batteries are okay
BUT if you can afford them, now that the prices are falling, go for Lithium.
I’m no expert, the opposite in fact. It’s a gut feeling.
I got my LC battery bank 18 months ago, I had to replace the old set as a matter of urgency. Kinda regretting that now.
Although thanks to our beloved leader, and David @ Wildebus, I do now have a pretty good compromise.
But as a rule of thumb. One lithium equals Two lead acid. I know I’ll be shot down for that last statement, so many experts on here. To them I’d say, look again at the first six words of this sentence, and the first six of the second sentence.

 

[Trotter]

been mulling this over for a couple of years but now batteries are 4 years old am committing to a lithium but intrigued by the hybrid systems such as derek has had fitted smoothing out the few lithium concerns ie charging when cold & limited discharge rate , found this guy on you tube the technical stuff is dumbed down enough that i can almost understand it and although my power bank is not as big as his nor is it required, so hopefully will fit the lithium in company with one of my current lead acids then in the summer add a lead carbon , but mixing the two technologies does have some significant advantages. This video might be worth watching.

it’s an american guy advocating hybrid for a boat installation

Clark’s video put me onto this idea in the first place. His links to David clinched it for me.

 

[nabsim]

Anyone thinking I’d lead carbon needs to look at the weight. Some motorhomes have little payload these days and lead carbon is heavy. If weight is an issue then you should look at Lifepo4, I saved 56kilos changing 3 x90ah lead acid for 2x100ah Lifepo4

 

[Mobilvetta]

Anyone thinking I’d lead carbon needs to look at the weight. Some motorhomes have little payload these days and lead carbon is heavy. If weight is an issue then you should look at Lifepo4, I saved 56kilos changing 3 x90ah lead acid for 2x100ah Lifepo4

Whilst I agree, it's not just as simple as that, otherwise I would go down the lifepo4 route, but it probably means changing all the different charging systems to cope with lithium batteries. From what I have read 1x 100amp lithium would give me the equivalent of my current set up of two 100amp wet cell batteries.

 

[nabsim]

Whilst I agree, it's not just as simple as that, otherwise I would go down the lifepo4 route, but it probably means changing all the different charging systems to cope with lithium batteries. From what I have read 1x 100amp lithium would give me the equivalent of my current set up of two 100amp wet cell batteries.

I think in previous discussions we have different EBL’s fitted. Although I have since uprated I initially used the EBL and add on Schaudt chargers set to Gel which was okay with my Lifepo4. My solar controller already had Lifepo4 setting but if your the Schaudt controller going through the EBL then the gel setting will do it. Apart from that I added a B2B which on my EBL was a very easy install using a Votronic B2B, it came with wiring diagram for this.
Yes one 100ah Lifepo4 will give the same useable amps as two 100ah wet cell but Lead Carbon is different as are a few Gel batteries. For me the main advantages of Lifepo4 were capacity, speed you can throw charge into them and weight/space saving.
I continue to change things around as I need, mainly getting more charge into the battery bank for me, I use a fair bit though.

 

[wildebus]

Whilst I agree, it's not just as simple as that, otherwise I would go down the lifepo4 route, but it probably means changing all the different charging systems to cope with lithium batteries. From what I have read 1x 100amp lithium would give me the equivalent of my current set up of two 100amp wet cell batteries.

Something that is worth bearing in mind .... for anyone who is an inverter user, the typical single 100Ah Lithium Battery cannot be used with an Inverter >1000W as the current draw will exceed the maximum current draw.

Note I say "typical". there is the odd 100Ah Lithium that has a 150A BMS (The Poweroad Infinity range is one), but most have 100A maximum and some are smaller than 100Ah.
Most larger than 100AH batteries also are still limited to 100A current (and there are some exceptions to that of course). When you parallel the batteries you add the current limits. so 2 batteries with 100A limit each will give you 200A of max current when in parallel.

So rule is ... if you have - or are thinking of getting - an inverter, check the current rating of the Batteries BMS before commiting.
Simple rule of thumb is 10W per A of current ... so if you have a 2000W inverter, you need a battery bank that can deliver 200A


(if someone says they have for example a 2000W inverter but only need say 50A as you only use 500W, then they have the wrong inverter and are wasting power!)

 

[CriftinsCampers]

I think I will be going to these subject to them being ok for my battery charger.

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/12v-leoch-pure-lead-carbon-plh-c100-deep-cycle-leisure-battery/​

These come with delivery included whereas Taya charge quite a lot for delivery.

I suggest you contact Leoch first, you might get an answer but don't count on it, they didn't reply to me when I asked if the minimum charge temp in their data sheet was an error. It says 0c

If that's not an error then this particular battery is probably designed for heated indoor environments and not the frozen wastes!

 

[Molly 3]

Problem with my set up is I am stuck with 14.4 volts charger sargent 328 no adjustment . So greatly reduces battery choice without major modifications.

 

[mistericeman]

Problem with my set up is I am stuck with 14.4 volts charger sargent 328 no adjustment . So greatly reduces battery choice without major modifications.

I can fully understand that...
I have to say though that having gone through the process of 'upgrading' the standard leisure electrics on our 2004 swift sundance from standard single battery/no solar/standard manufacturers fitted charger/manufacturers split charge relay

to

3 x 110ah AGM
Ring Rscdc30 combined solar MPPT/B2B charger
400w bifacial solar panel
And Victron Ip22 12/30 mains charger

It's a world of difference....

Charging times via solar/alternator/mains are really poles apart....

 

[wildebus]

Problem with my set up is I am stuck with 14.4 volts charger sargent 328 no adjustment . So greatly reduces battery choice without major modifications.

The Sargent 328 has a very low charge output, so that is something to be aware of even if you keep it.

As far as major Modifications to get round the limitation .....
1) Buy a Mains Battery Charger (the Victron IP22 is a good choice)
2) Connect the Output to the Battery
3) Connect the input to an AC supply
4) Make sure the big red switch on the top of the EC328 is off
Depending on where you can get a battery connection and where you can pick up an AC connection, this job could be done well within the hour (I think fitting an IP22 30A on a Autotrail Dakota (fitted with Sargent EC325/328) took me maybe 10 minutes?

 

[Molly 3]

My choice at the at the moment is 1x ritar 110 lead carbon or 2x yuasa 110 efb ???.ritar offers space and weight saving.

 

[wildebus]

My choice at the at the moment is 1x ritar 110 lead carbon or 2x yuasa 110 efb ???.ritar offers space and weight saving.

If you are challenged for space and especially weight, then you should consider Lithium (but you would need to bypass the Sargent for charging on both driving and on EHU).
The Lead Carbon will go lower than then Yuasa, but I wouldn't say a single LC is equal to a pair of Lead Acids. they just offer a better flexibility and a bit of a "reserve tank" for occasional use.

 

[Molly 3]

As you know th e sargent has the ability to charge the engine battery with both sollar and mains witch I find very useful .so the job list goes on,
it would make life easier if lithiam drop in replacement are as they are advertised , simply drop in ?? .

 

[wildebus]

As you know th e sargent has the ability to charge the engine battery with both sollar and mains witch I find very useful .so the job list goes on,
it would make life easier if lithiam drop in replacement are as they are advertised , simply drop in ?? .

On the EC325/328, it charges the engine battery only if the control panel is set to Vehicle Battery though. It is one or the other, not both.

If you had a proper mains charger like the Victron IP22, and then set the Control Panel to Vehicle and the Sargent Charger switched on you would actually be charging the Engine battery from the Sargent and the Leisure battery from the Victron. Sorted.

Sargent Solar Controller? limited and basic. worth using a different one regardless of anything else.

Lithiums are rarely really "drop in" if you really want a managed system. Apart from suitable charging which a van may or may not have, you need a way to monitor them so you don't get a unexected surprise. A Sargent system that tells you (badly usually) the voltage and nothing else is not good enough.

Going back to your first point about very useful to be able to charge the Starter .... Selecting between Vehicle and Lesiure on the EC328 is manual - so if you were to leave the van in storage over winter, for example, you would need to decide WHICH battery to charge, it will not do both. it is better to fit some kind of Trickle Charger so you can do both at the same time.
If you have Lead Leisure, then a Battery Master and many other similar devices will do that. If you have Lithium Leisure, then the only kiddy on the block as far as I am aware is the Ablemail AMT-12. You can get something like the Votronic Duo Solar Controller if you were to upgrade the Solar, but that is limited to Solar trickle only, not EHU.


(PS. I do like my Sargent Unit with the control panel, but the charging features are poor and dated)

 

[Iandsm]

I suggest you contact Leoch first, you might get an answer but don't count on it, they didn't reply to me when I asked if the minimum charge temp in their data sheet was an error. It says 0c

If that's not an error then this particular battery is probably designed for heated indoor environments and not the frozen wastes!

Thanks, I see that many Leoch batteries which are lead carbon have a charge temperature from 0 upwards so I don't think that the minimum charge temp quoted is a mistake. They will operate at down to -40. From what I read it would be dangerous to attempt to charge a frozen battery anyway.