Would you buy a new EVan, with 300 is mile rang?

[Carrerasax]

I think 300 miles would be ample for me. Average 100 a day occasionally 250 but then we tour not rush anywhere
But I’m not likely to have cash to invest in a new anything now so

 

[Geek]

And that is exactly why nobody wants this Poundland system to ever happen.

Oh, I agree it's a bloody stupid idea. But it has nothing whatever to do with pay per mile vehicle taxation.

 

[GeoffL]

Oh, I agree it's a bloody stupid idea. But it has nothing whatever to do with pay per mile vehicle taxation.

It does in that both Digital ID and any 'Pay-Per-Mile' system would be Government IT systems and, as you noted, therefore hopeless. I suspect that @maingate only cited Digital ID to point that out -- i.e. that 'Pay-Per-Mile' is going to be flawed and broken before it starts but they're going to do it anyway!

 

[Geek]

On that basis, you could link it to pretty* near anything any government does. There is no government function that doesn't involve IT.

*Autoincorrect changed this to 'pretu'. Is that even a word?

 

[GeoffL]

Getting back to the EV thing: 'Pay per Mile' has been mooted for EVs only -- to replace the loss of fuel duty that ICEV drivers will continue to pay. AFAICT, all EVs currently on the road record usage data and send this back to the manufacturers. Hence, it's a simple matter (just issue a TCN) for the Government to have access to that data and hence be able to bill on a mileage, road class, and time driven basis. Systems already exist that handle that much data, so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility.
Should they wish to expand this to cover ICEVs also, all UK cars manufactured from 2018 onward also record usage data and send this to manufacturers, and many did for some years prior to this. So it's only the older ICEVs where this isn't possible and I have little doubt that the Government will come up with something (e.g. billing based on MOT mileage). Yes, it will be possible to fraudulently circumvent such a system; and yes, there will no doubt be errors, but that won't stop a Government hell bent on implementing their agenda.

 

[Geek]

Although that might be technically feasible (I don't think that the systems are set up to broadcast positions in real time, except in energency), I rather doubt that EV manufacturers will be happy with that approach.
GDPR type regulations would put them in a sticky position, and what could be called the 'tin foil brigade' would have a field day.
Whatever system is used it needs to be one that isn't using a backdoor that would bring the whole vehicle into disrepute.
Probably a government black box would make more sense.
After all, whatever third-rate IT company gets the contract will want some way of creaming off a huge profit.

 

[Geek]

: 'Pay per Mile' has been mooted for EVs only

Are you sure about that? It has certainly been mooted for EVs for the reason given, but I don't recall any mention of it being for EVs only.
If it works, what would be the reason for not applying it to all cars?
You'd not want an incentive to use your ICE rather than EV if you had both available (as many people do).
Then again, perhaps I'm over thinking this.
Most government decisions are made on the basis of how popular three-word, four-brain cell slogans will be.
That's why the state pension is a hand-to-mouth scheme. It was intended to have savings invested for decades before paying out, but the delay was deemed unacceptable.

 

[GeoffL]

Although that might be technically feasible (I don't think that the systems are set up to broadcast positions in real time, except in energency), I rather doubt that EV manufacturers will be happy with that approach.

It seems that a TCN might have already been issued under the guise of preventing MOT fraud. Starting next month, MOT centres are required to photograph the vehicle under test in the test bay and that this, together with location tracking and other analytics will be used to verify/validate the MOT test...

 

[Geek]

What terrible AI narration!
It is also pretty unconvincing. I suspect it was written by AI.
All MOT tests are already being monitored in real time. This is all to try to catch the fake mot tests, but the basic change was putting the 'certificate' online.
However, it is technically easy to cope with one location update every year.
One location update every 30 seconds for every car on the road in the UK might be a very different matter. You'd need that sort of frequency to avoid missing short trips.
The data would need to be kept for at least 12 months if it was an annual charge.
We are talking about an enormous number of records.
I run a GPS tracker server that only has about a score of active vehicles. The database is huge even though I purge records over 3 years old.

 

[2cv]

On my car I can see the precise location for start and finish of each journey. Occasionally however complete journeys are missed so the system would not be suitable for tax collection.

 

[Geek]

There are about 35 million cars on UK roads, including about 1.5 million EVs.
Assume one location update every 30 seconds, over a year that's one million updates.
So that's 1.5 billion records (1.5 trillion if you use American billions) per year for EVs, or 35 billion for all cars. Or 43 billion if you include all vehicles on the road.
The biggest database I have worked on had just 880,000,000 rows. That felt pretty huge, but this is way bigger.

 

[maingate]

After all, whatever third-rate IT company gets the contract will want some way of creaming off a huge profit.

It will be the third rate company Multiverse owned by Euan Blair (son of Tony) no doubt.

He has a great track record despite being given every opportunity not open to anyone else.

Euan Blair - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GeoffL]

There are about 35 million cars on UK roads, including about 1.5 million EVs.
Assume one location update every 30 seconds, over a year that's one million updates.
So that's 1.5 billion records (1.5 trillion if you use American billions) per year for EVs, or 35 billion for all cars. Or 43 billion if you include all vehicles on the road.
The biggest database I have worked on had just 880,000,000 rows. That felt pretty huge, but this is way bigger.

Firstly, the Government doesn't actually need to keep full records -- they just need the rollups. Secondly, the manufacturers already have 'all that data' and so the required database already exists -- just not in one location. Just like Digital ID, which is planned to be a distributed system, it's not all in one database but all potentially accessible to the same entity. Also, the maximum database size is way bigger than you think. For example, the maximum table size for SQL Server 8 is over 5,000 petabytes, ... now distribute the data (say one table for each year of manufacture) and 'job done'!

 

[Geek]

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it is not feasible for a government to do it, and for such a pointless reason as road tax.
Of course you only need rollup records to bill people. But you still need the detailed data if there is any dispute.
The manufacturers do NOT have all that data.
I don't know how much tracking data is reported, but it certainly won't be fine-grained enough for taxation purposes, and I very much doubt it is reported in real time.
Yes, the manufacturers do have odometer records, but so does the MOT system.
The sensible way to do it is to take an odometer reading once a year at MOT time. Not even slightly difficult. However, even that is dubious. Almost all odometers overread by between 5% and 10%. This give better mpg and longer service intervals at zero cost to the manufacturer.

 

[Geek]

It will be the third rate company Multiverse owned by Euan Blair (son of Tony) no doubt.

He has a great track record despite being given every opportunity not open to anyone else.

Euan Blair - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He is no worse than the usual three swindlers that get most government IT contracts. I think he'll be too tied up with the ID app to get involved in mileage tracking.

 

[nabsim]

Ford are supplying a hybrid van to motorhome/camper manufacturers. It was on Matts Motorhome podcast yesterday at NEC show. I missed a bit so not sure if it is self charge hybrid or not, I would hope so. Going off the Hyundai hybrid I had that will be very beneficial to owners, by far the best mpg have ever had from an automatic car.

On the same podcast they were saying it's 5 years until you have to have EV. Has something changed again, I thought that didn't apply to vans and lorries? Not that it will affect me though, I won't be buying a new one. They also said there were no EV motorhome options for 2026, that's probably meaning major manufacturers though

 

[Geek]

The Ford hybrid has the electronics underneath the ICE mechanics, which can leak pil and water.
Makes a wet belt seem like a sensible idea in comparison.

 

[GeoffL]

The manufacturers do NOT have all that data.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Cars with ISA and most from 2018 on send tracking data back to the manufacturers. In the case of ISA, it's fine grained enough for the GPS system to know where the car is for speed limit adherence purposes...

Of course you only need rollup records to bill people. But you still need the detailed data if there is any dispute.

Just like with the Inland Revenue, you mean? In the case of any dispute, it will be almost certainly up to you to prove that bill is incorrect rather than the DVLA (or whoever heads the system) to prove their case. In the meantime, the manufacturers will have the data and I suspect this can be obtained by a subject access request.

 

[Geek]

I think you are misled.

 

[maingate]

And just to stick a knife in Digital ID credibility. It is rumoured that 186,000,000 gmail accounts have been compromised by hackers, plus some Outlook and Yahoo accounts. Advice is to change your passwords.


The best news is: It will take this Government many years to fully implement Digi ID and the favourite Party to take over Government has announced it will kill the idea totally.