lithium fire

Well whatever the cause it looks like the retractable dog lead survived!
 
Enlighten me. Why do you need to get the lid off a battery? Is your Cornish Pasty cooking away nicely in there? Or are you looking for a secret LPG refilling point inside?
 
gasgas said:
Enlighten me. Why do you need to get the lid off a battery? Is your Cornish Pasty cooking away nicely in there? Or are you looking for a secret LPG refilling point inside?
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I will ignore the sarcasm and answer the question as someone else may be genuinely interested....

A Lithium Battery is different to a Lead Acid Battery and contains electronics in the form of a BMS (Battery Management System) PCB and Chips, plus maybe a Bluetooth chip.
The actual Lithium Cells tend to be pretty reliable but electronic components can fail at any time. The advantage of having the ability of taking the case lid off in a non-destructive way can be very useful if a fault develops out of warranty, or even potentially within the warranty time?
For example, KS Energys official warranty stance is the battery is warrantied for 5 years (possibly 7?) but the bluetooth bit of the battery - which is INSIDE the batterty case has only a one year warranty. If you want KS Energy to fix that, they quote approximately £150.
A battery owner might decide they will repair the battery themselves and change the failed component (approx cost £15-£25) and being able to undo the lid makes it much more simple than taking a saw or similar to the case to open it up and then having to buy a new case.
And of course a Lithium Cell can fail also, and being able to access the internals gives the ability to service that aspect as well.

Feeling enlightened?
 
Ah yes, thank you for that explanation, I didn't know that. Failed components rarely cost as much as £15-25, I can't think of one that costs that much. Some years ago I was manufacturing reversing sensors, and for example LEDs cost me 0.8p each. That was when Maplin was selling them at 38p if you bought them by the hundred.
I did see a youtube where a chap was saying you can buy a Toyota electric car for £400 because that is what they are worth with the battery warning light on the dashboard. You can then spend half a day removing all the seats and trim from above the battery, disconnect each cell and measure its voltage, which brings the light on if one or more cells go below I think it was 1.2v. You can pull the cells out like slices of toast from a toaster, and if you can get a decent cell you can just slot it in and rewire everything and replace the trim. Then the dashboard light doesn't come on and you have yourself a £4000 car. It seems very logical. Trouble is of course that Toyota and Panasonic, the cell manufacturers have got it all stitched up and you can't buy a new cell, not form Toyota or Panasonic or Halfords or anywhere. You have to find a scrap yard that knows what it's doing, and buy a second hand cell that they will have tested.
So where would you get a replacement cell for a leisure battery? I would be pleasantly surprised if you can get it from the battery manufacturer, I would expect them to refuse.
Anyway it doesn't matter, I haven't got one.
 
gasgas said:
Ah yes, thank you for that explanation, I didn't know that. Failed components rarely cost as much as £15-25, I can't think of one that costs that much. Some years ago I was manufacturing reversing sensors, and for example LEDs cost me 0.8p each. That was when Maplin was selling them at 38p if you bought them by the hundred.
I did see a youtube where a chap was saying you can buy a Toyota electric car for £400 because that is what they are worth with the battery warning light on the dashboard. You can then spend half a day removing all the seats and trim from above the battery, disconnect each cell and measure its voltage, which brings the light on if one or more cells go below I think it was 1.2v. You can pull the cells out like slices of toast from a toaster, and if you can get a decent cell you can just slot it in and rewire everything and replace the trim. Then the dashboard light doesn't come on and you have yourself a £4000 car. It seems very logical. Trouble is of course that Toyota and Panasonic, the cell manufacturers have got it all stitched up and you can't buy a new cell, not form Toyota or Panasonic or Halfords or anywhere. You have to find a scrap yard that knows what it's doing, and buy a second hand cell that they will have tested.
So where would you get a replacement cell for a leisure battery? I would be pleasantly surprised if you can get it from the battery manufacturer, I would expect them to refuse.
Anyway it doesn't matter, I haven't got one.
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I'm sure Fogstar sell replacement Cells, and, IIRC, matched to the original battery for type and quality

Steve
 
gasgas said:
Ah yes, thank you for that explanation, I didn't know that. Failed components rarely cost as much as £15-25, I can't think of one that costs that much. Some years ago I was manufacturing reversing sensors, and for example LEDs cost me 0.8p each. That was when Maplin was selling them at 38p if you bought them by the hundred.
I did see a youtube where a chap was saying you can buy a Toyota electric car for £400 because that is what they are worth with the battery warning light on the dashboard. You can then spend half a day removing all the seats and trim from above the battery, disconnect each cell and measure its voltage, which brings the light on if one or more cells go below I think it was 1.2v. You can pull the cells out like slices of toast from a toaster, and if you can get a decent cell you can just slot it in and rewire everything and replace the trim. Then the dashboard light doesn't come on and you have yourself a £4000 car. It seems very logical. Trouble is of course that Toyota and Panasonic, the cell manufacturers have got it all stitched up and you can't buy a new cell, not form Toyota or Panasonic or Halfords or anywhere. You have to find a scrap yard that knows what it's doing, and buy a second hand cell that they will have tested.
So where would you get a replacement cell for a leisure battery? I would be pleasantly surprised if you can get it from the battery manufacturer, I would expect them to refuse.
Anyway it doesn't matter, I haven't got one.
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If you had cared to read the post by wildbus correctly you would have understood he was talking about the BMS used in the type of battery that is the concern of this thread, you will not find a replacement for one of those for a few pence.
You're story about the Toyota obviously highlights the worth of a battery that can be easily accessed just like the one you seemed to ridiculing.
 
If someone breaks down every component, then there are many parts that are available elsewhere. They may be as good; they may be good enough; hell, they may even be better.
Costing a product based on the individual component parts is a very flawed process, such as the "£400 Toyota". Wrong on so many levels and ignored so many things not worth going there.
 
gasgas said:
The more I read and hear about lithium batteries, the less I want one.
This guy is pretty much an expert on all things automotive and I find his videos very interesting and informative. He has recently done quite a few on Lithium batteries, and what he says makes sense. For example if you drive into an underground car park with EV charging points and only one entrance / exit area, go and park somewhere else. If a lithium battery catches fire it is impossible to extinguish because it generates its own oxygen. It will burn under water. Here's an example:

In any case I can buy four lead acids for the price of one lithium, and until my lead acids do not provide the current I want, there is no point in spending money on something I don't need. It seems to me that there is a headlong rush to be fashionable and have lithium batteries. Unless you are in Darkest Peru (I've been there and it isn't dark) at midnight wanting to run your hair drier, electric oven, electric heating, kettle, hot water boiler and TV all night, it is doubtful that you need a lithium battery. I don't - and I don't stop at camp sites.
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The main bonus point for Lifepo4 battery is weight, most 3.5t motorhomes are almost over weight, so having Lifepo4 battery half the weight of a lead acid battery is an advantage, only one problem with new type of lithium batteries today is heat, they should have a built in temp cut out on the bms (Battery Management System), some are sold without this.
 
Peregrinator said:
They are the same, some are just packaged differently.
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The LiFePO4 cells we have in our motorhome leisure batteries have only recently found their way into some EVs. Most EVs are using cells with a very different chemistry and a much greater risk of thermal runaway.
 
Peregrinator said:
The main bonus point for Lifepo4 battery is weight, most 3.5t motorhomes are almost over weight, so having Lifepo4 battery half the weight of a lead acid battery is an advantage, .....
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While we are all getting entangled in a few kg of weight difference between batteries, how about thinking whether a spare wheel is necessary? I read that the AA had done a survey on punctures and other tyre deflations, and found that on average a vehicle does 99,000 miles between deflations. Not 'A' vehicle, I mean on average 99,000 miles are covered for every tyre deflation.
So maybe if weight is your problem (isn't it for most of us? I mean your vehicle's weight of course) perhaps we should consider not carrying heavy things like spare wheels and electric bikes, rather than the type of LB we have.
Another thing to consider might be that a solar panel weighs less than a battery so perhaps instead of having two batteries we should double up on solar panels.
 
gasgas said:
While we are all getting entangled in a few kg of weight difference between batteries, how about thinking whether a spare wheel is necessary? I read that the AA had done a survey on punctures and other tyre deflations, and found that on average a vehicle does 99,000 miles between deflations. Not 'A' vehicle, I mean on average 99,000 miles are covered for every tyre deflation.
So maybe if weight is your problem (isn't it for most of us? I mean your vehicle's weight of course) perhaps we should consider not carrying heavy things like spare wheels and electric bikes, rather than the type of LB we have.
Another thing to consider might be that a solar panel weighs less than a battery so perhaps instead of having two batteries we should double up on solar panels.
Click to expand...
Our Burstner is not supplied with a spare wheel from new, but I do have a lithium battery, an inverter and 2 electric bikes. No payload taken up by booze though. Chacun a son gout ...

Steve
 
gasgas said:
While we are all getting entangled in a few kg of weight difference between batteries, how about thinking whether a spare wheel is necessary? I read that the AA had done a survey on punctures and other tyre deflations, and found that on average a vehicle does 99,000 miles between deflations. Not 'A' vehicle, I mean on average 99,000 miles are covered for every tyre deflation.
So maybe if weight is your problem (isn't it for most of us? I mean your vehicle's weight of course) perhaps we should consider not carrying heavy things like spare wheels and electric bikes, rather than the type of LB we have.
Another thing to consider might be that a solar panel weighs less than a battery so perhaps instead of having two batteries we should double up on solar panels.
Click to expand...
If you only travel around the UK, or perhaps the more heavily populated parts of it, you will probably be OK without a spare wheel, if you venture to the EU mainland or the highlands etc. then you could find yourself with considerable delay if you get a puncture that leads to the not uncommon total destruction of the tyre.
Solar panels are brilliant but only when the sun shines, you can't beat having your own full sized power supply ready to be recharged when the sun does decide to shine.
 
gasgas said:
While we are all getting entangled in a few kg of weight difference between batteries, how about thinking whether a spare wheel is necessary? I read that the AA had done a survey on punctures and other tyre deflations, and found that on average a vehicle does 99,000 miles between deflations. Not 'A' vehicle, I mean on average 99,000 miles are covered for every tyre deflation.
So maybe if weight is your problem (isn't it for most of us? I mean your vehicle's weight of course) perhaps we should consider not carrying heavy things like spare wheels and electric bikes, rather than the type of LB we have.
Another thing to consider might be that a solar panel weighs less than a battery so perhaps instead of having two batteries we should double up on solar panels.
Click to expand...
Manufacturers decided a good few years ago that in a lot of cases a spare is not needed, some cars don’t even have anywhere you could put one now. I think it’s 12 years since I have had a new car with a spare, they have all come with a compressors and gunk to seal puncture, (never had a puncture it works on yet though). That’s the last 5 cars
 
nabsim said:
Manufacturers decided a good few years ago that in a lot of cases a spare is not needed, some cars don’t even have anywhere you could put one now. I think it’s 12 years since I have had a new car with a spare, they have all come with a compressors and gunk to seal puncture, (never had a puncture it works on yet though). That’s the last 5 cars
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Tyre fitters love that gunk too 🤣🤣🤣
 
I am hoping I can remove my spare wheel and cradle, and replace it with the same weight in water. I've only just got the mh so I'll have to investigate resultant pipework. Or another option woud be to remove the grey water tank and replace it with another fresh water tank and a tiny grey tank. I recall the summer of 1976 when we were told by the government to water our gardens with washing up water so I don't see why we shouldn't water the layby hedges with it.
 
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