'Eco-Worthy' lithium batteries

[Sonar]

Blimy just as I was considering the Eco worthy battery’s.

Do lead acid batters suffer the same in the cold..

So far I have not had and problems with them that I know of

 

[nabsim]

It would still have to be very close on price difference for me to go for anything more than a basic, dumb battery based on my own experiences and usage.

Do ALL lifepo4 with built in heaters work like you described David as I have seen posts where people have had flat battery because of them using power for heaters when the van has been parked up, built in heaters not heat pads?

@Sonar you have to take into account location of battery, how you use the van etc. Mine are under a bench in the habitation area and I am in the van most of the time. If its cold I have heating on so internal (and battery) temp will be good to charge. If van was left empty with no heating but plugged into hook up say at home you won't want basic battery. If you are like me they are fine BUT always check prices, if the same battery was up to a hundred pounds more than the basic one I may be tempted although probably need to be closer on price lol

 

[wildebus]

It would still have to be very close on price difference for me to go for anything more than a basic, dumb battery based on my own experiences and usage.

I think in your circumstances, I doubt if you will get a notable benefit for having heaters.

Do ALL lifepo4 with built in heaters work like you described David as I have seen posts where people have had flat battery because of them using power for heaters when the van has been parked up, built in heaters not heat pads?

Good question. And I have no doubt there will be the odd one or two early/bargain ones that have a more standard BMS rather than a 'specialist' one. But any decent battery with internal heaters should never use battery power to drive the heaters. there is no point as even though the battery cannot be charged under Zero C, it can still be used down to -20C, so if no charging available, no need to warm the battery up.

@Sonar you have to take into account location of battery, how you use the van etc. Mine are under a bench in the habitation area and I am in the van most of the time. If its cold I have heating on so internal (and battery) temp will be good to charge. If van was left empty with no heating but plugged into hook up say at home you won't want basic battery. If you are like me they are fine BUT always check prices, if the same battery was up to a hundred pounds more than the basic one I may be tempted although probably need to be closer on price lol

 

[Landyseverywhere]

I have just bought..200amp continuous BMS with BT module,heater control and two battery tempsensors +. 1 sensor for heat pads,looks and feels very well built £50,2 X heat pads under£10 the pair,4 X 320 ah batteries along with cable/crimps etc just over £300..not only bought for price but will give the opportunity to replace BMS/heaters/BT module/cells in the future should any fail

 

[Landyseverywhere]

I have just bought..200amp continuous BMS with BT module,heater control and two battery tempsensors +. 1 sensor for heat pads,looks and feels very well built £50,2 X heat pads under£10 the pair,4 X 320 ah batteries along with cable/crimps etc just over £300..not only bought for price but will give the opportunity to replace BMS/heaters/BT module/cells in the future should any fail

£300 was total cost cells circa £240

 

[wildebus]

I have just bought..200amp continuous BMS with BT module,heater control and two battery tempsensors +. 1 sensor for heat pads,looks and feels very well built £50,2 X heat pads under£10 the pair,4 X 320 ah batteries along with cable/crimps etc just over £300..not only bought for price but will give the opportunity to replace BMS/heaters/BT module/cells in the future should any fail

sounds like a good option there. notably more expensive than the supercheap BMSes fitted in the cheapest batteries, but worth the extra expense.

Access can be a problem (depending on casing used), but it is perfectly feasible to remove a BMS from an existing lithium battery and fit a better more featured one that that to upgrade the battery to a much more flexible one.

 

[nabsim]

£300 was total cost cells circa £240

Do you happen to know how many of these battery when built you can parallel together on 12V? I am limited to 2 battery at 12V on parallel which has to be a limitation of the BMS fitted rather than anything else.

 

[Landyseverywhere]

Do you happen to know how many of these battery when built you can parallel together on 12V? I am limited to 2 battery at 12V on parallel which has to be a limitation of the BMS fitted rather than anything else.

Reading listing no mention,have emailed china,if I get a reply will let you know

 

[CriftinsCampers]

Do lead acid batters suffer the same…

The claimed lead acid battery capacity i.e the advertised C rate is measured at 25c
Once you get down to 0c the rated capacity reduces by about 20%
They don’t fall off a charging cliff like lithiums do below 0c but you are effectively having to put more charge in , in relation to what you get out the colder they get.

My personal preference would be a lead/lithium hybrid but all the solutions I have seen have been flaky or stupidly expensive and none have sufficient long term (if any) reviews either!

 

[Sonar]

The claimed lead acid battery capacity i.e the advertised C rate is measured at 25c
Once you get down to 0c the rated capacity reduces by about 20%
They don’t fall off a charging cliff like lithiums do below 0c but you are effectively having to put more charge in , in relation to what you get out the colder they get.

My personal preference would be a lead/lithium hybrid but all the solutions I have seen have been flaky or stupidly expensive and none have sufficient long term (if any) reviews either!

Thanks for the information .

So the heated lithium battery’s are the way to go .
IF you want to run throughout the year in full use .

Those that do not use the Moho in the winter would not be affected then by using an unheated lithium battery then
Only if the temp of the battery stayed below 0c all the time in use .

But if the temp is below 0c through the night and early morning but rises again before use the charge to the battery resumes .

Or have I got it all wrong again I usually do .

 

[Exwindsurfer]

I've had unheated lithium batteries for over 5 years now and never had a prob within and yes we do use the van in the winter.The batteries are set so they won't take a charge below -2 but we can still use them.

 

[Landyseverywhere]

Do you happen to know how many of these battery when built you can parallel together on 12V? I am limited to 2 battery at 12V on parallel which has to be a limitation of the BMS fitted rather than anything else.

Had a reply they say 4 in series ? I am fairly sure they mean parallel,as according to the data sheet it is not suitable for series connection ,I have asked for confirmation

 

[wildebus]

The claimed lead acid battery capacity i.e the advertised C rate is measured at 25c
Once you get down to 0c the rated capacity reduces by about 20%
They don’t fall off a charging cliff like lithiums do below 0c but you are effectively having to put more charge in , in relation to what you get out the colder they get.

My personal preference would be a lead/lithium hybrid but all the solutions I have seen have been flaky or stupidly expensive and none have sufficient long term (if any) reviews either!

My Lead/Lithium Hybrid setup has been working flawlessly since I set it up around 3 years ago. Not expensive and not flaky.
In fact it can be cheaper than just going 100% Lithium as you don't need to have to upgrade to Lithium capable chargers.

I have people all over the world running the same setup in fact - As well as UK, sent controllers to Europe, USA, Far East, Anzac. Waiting for Africa and South America though

 

[merl]

Do you happen to know how many of these battery when built you can parallel together on 12V? I am limited to 2 battery at 12V on parallel which has to be a limitation of the BMS fitted rather than anything else.

I can't think of a scientific reason why paralleling batteries would be limited at all, let alone to just two. As long as the connecting up was done sensibly/correctly the number of parallel batteries should be limitless. Would love to hear why they stipulated that figure .

 

[wildebus]

I can't think of a scientific reason why paralleling batteries would be limited at all, let alone to just two. As long as the connecting up was done sensibly/correctly the number of parallel batteries should be limitless. Would love to hear why they stipulated that figure .

It is quite common to see a number quoted for max battery count in series and/or parallel.
As an example, the manufacturer Poweroad (in China) have the 'Infinity' range, in which a key feature is you can connect an unlimited number of batteries in parallel. However the same company also have a 'Linc Base' model that can be wired in the configuration as 4 in series or 2 in parallel.
I don't know WHY there are these limits, but when I see a company having two different products, one with a stated limit and one without, there must be a genuine and specific reason for it - but I too would like to know the logic behind that
I used to have a couple of these Infinitys and have installed a few. If I can find the address (it is on my old Outlook system) I might send the tech guy from Poweroad in China I know to see if he can give me some info on this.

 

[merl]

It is quite common to see a number quoted for max battery count in series and/or parallel.
As an example, the manufacturer Poweroad (in China) have the 'Infinity' range, in which a key feature is you can connect an unlimited number of batteries in parallel. However the same company also have a 'Linc Base' model that can be wired in the configuration as 4 in series or 2 in parallel.
I don't know WHY there are these limits, but when I see a company having two different products, one with a stated limit and one without, there must be a genuine and specific reason for it - but I too would like to know the logic behind that
I used to have a couple of these Infinitys and have installed a few. If I can find the address (it is on my old Outlook system) I might send the tech guy from Poweroad in China I know to see if he can give me some info on this.

IF you get a meaningful response I'll be surprised David!
But here's hoping

 

[wildebus]

IF you get a meaningful response I'll be surprised David!
But here's hoping

If you do a search you will get the following answers:

1) No problems, just do it
2) You will cause the end of the world
3) every possibility inbetween 1) and 2)

pick the answer you want to hear and say "it's a Fact. I checked on-line"

 

[Geek]

My take on this is that cold isn't an issue.

My setup is a hefty deep cycle AGM bank and a single 100Ah lithium in parallel with them, though monitored separately. It has worked a treat for several years. Generally the lead acids sit in the background, letting the lithium do all the hard work, but stepping in when it runs out of capacity.

Charging is by solar (200watts of panel) or by B2B (40 amps or so).

The lithium battery is inside the insulated, heated envelope of the vehicle.

In theory, although the solar would not put out enough power to damage the battery on a frosty winter's day, the B2B could do just that.

In practice, it has never turned out that way.

If I need to drive the vehicle when the weather is below freezing, I turn the heating on long before.

If there was a time that this was not possible, I could switch the b2b circuit off, or pop a cable off the battery.

In several years, I've never had occasion to do either of these things.

 

[merl]

My take on this is that cold isn't an issue.

My setup is a hefty deep cycle AGM bank and a single 100Ah lithium in parallel with them, though monitored separately. It has worked a treat for several years. Generally the lead acids sit in the background, letting the lithium do all the hard work, but stepping in when it runs out of capacity.

Charging is by solar (200watts of panel) or by B2B (40 amps or so).

The lithium battery is inside the insulated, heated envelope of the vehicle.

In theory, although the solar would not put out enough power to damage the battery on a frosty winter's day, the B2B could do just that.

In practice, it has never turned out that way.

If I need to drive the vehicle when the weather is below freezing, I turn the heating on long before.

If there was a time that this was not possible, I could switch the b2b circuit off, or pop a cable off the battery.

In several years, I've never had occasion to do either of these things.

You'll have to dig deep on the net and into white papers to find the facts but the 'dont charge below zero ' mantra is actually a very blunt instrument to battery charging safety.
Fact 1. There is NO cliff edge at zero degrees.
Fact 2. As David hinted at, the charge current needs to be taken into account, the higher the charge current at a given temperature the higher the risk of damage because....
Fact 3. State of charge ALSO needs to be accounted for, the nearer to 100% charge again to the risk increases.
The upshot is charging a 100 Ah battery at 60A at 95% state of charge at +5 degrees will do more damage than charging at 5A at 40% state of charge at -5 degrees.
Personally I wouldn't worry about solar charging in the British winter because it probably doesn't get cold enough to be an issue at the kind of current that a typical van solar system can generate at that time of year. Setting the solar charger settings to around 13V (if you have the capability) will ensure the battery sits at approx 50% charge giving a final level of safety.
I'd be very careful using a high current B2B or even more cautious using a mains fast charger (I think David linked to one a while back that was around 100A!) I'd personally avoid using one below 10deg unless the battery was well discharged especially with a single battery.

 

[nabsim]

Had a reply they say 4 in series ? I am fairly sure they mean parallel,as according to the data sheet it is not suitable for series connection ,I have asked for confirmation

Manufacturer of mine state 2 in parallel and 4 in serial configuration so they may mean what they say. I assumed it was something to do with the BMS as I can't think anything else would care.